Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

yes miltiades , but could you tell me the number of negotiation rounds that we had since 2004 ?
before , denktash was a very good excuse. now it is us who are putting the excuses.

if you expect the tcs to revolt against the turkish army , i am sorry to dissapoint you but that will not happen. a momentum that was there is gone , and neither tpap , nor talat , nor akel are doing anything towards chaning that climate...on the contrary.

There is no difference between Denctash and Talat since accepting to become the leader of the puppet state of Turkey requires to accept to become a puppet yourself. Turkey would never allow a TC leader that is against the Turkish interests to become a leader of their puppet state.
Turkey needed a facelift to appear more European to EU. Talat is simply part of the mask Turkey is currently wearing, while behind the mask the Turkish army is running everything as always.

With the current balance of power the negotiations will lead nowhere.
Turkey believes that she can get everything that she wants (EU accession, control of northern Cyprus etc) without making any compromises since they have the UK/US backing.

The TCs believe that they can gain on the loss of GCs since they feel as being in a more powerful position. As long as they continue to believe that they will not "revolt" against Turkey.

So you may ask: So what is the solution? Currently there is non. Unless you believe that suicide is a suitable solution for difficult problems.
I do not share that opinion. The fight against the Turkish army is very unbalanced and not in our favor. But we do have some weapons, namely legality, our human rights, the fact that RoC is the only recognized country on the island and an EU member. If we are not stupid enough to throw away what we have, then with the right policies* we might be able to use those weapons in the future to achieve an acceptable solution to the Cyprus problem.

*The right policies in my opinion is to resist to the pressure and make Turkey to understand that they can not have northern Cyprus and EU at the same time. We should also make TCs to understand that they can not gain on our loss, by making sure that they are loosing at least as much as we do from this conflict.

The solution will not come with "pants down" policies. It will come when the others realize that they have to show respect in our human and democratic rights, in the same way that we are willing to respect theirs.

Will we achieve this aim? Maybe, or maybe not. However even if we don't the result will still be better than the suicide that some propose. Therefore to keep fighting for what is legal and just is the only option available.

[miltiades]

Cypezokyli , I think Piratis has already quite eloquently answered your question as to how we get the Turkish troops out. Let me just use a cliche by saying that the process of achieving the utmost bust be carried out in an atmosphere of good will and co operation.Precisely>>> "It will come when the others realize that they have to show respect for our human and democratic rights, in the same way that we are willing to respect theirs. "
Piratis words . We have on our side the European chapter on human rights , respect of international boundaries , and a Europe that will as time goes on underline Cyprus as the major obstacle to Turkeys journey in to Europe. Rest assured the US and Britain support Turkey for strategic reasons ONLY. But even the US and Britain have to listen to Europe's call for the withdrawal of foreign troops from its soil , that of Cyprus.
The Turkish Cypriots have been encouraged by recent events and some might have been wrongly influenced to believe that in time the worldwide recognition of the ROC as the only legitimate nation will perhaps come to an end , and recognition of the occupied part of Cyprus will occur. I think they are wise enough to know that the future of all Cyprus depends on the spirit mentioned above of "goodwill and co operation" Turkey with its 70 million plus population will not squander the only opportunity it has in becoming a European nation and reaping all the benefits , Agriculture beeing the main area to benefit hugely , but also all the foreign capital that the millions of Turks will repatriate by freely moving in Europe . The Turkish Cypriots will not rebel against the Turkish army but the day that it becomes crystal clear that they can live in peace with their Greek compatriots , that day will be the start of the Turkish troops becoming redundant.All of us must understand that we owe it to the future of generations to come , to put all our efforts towards securing a just solution and as Piratis states "The solution will not come with "pants down" policies " This is not a statement of an extremist or an appeaser but a statement of a true Cypriot.

[Damsi]

Just to clarify a few things about the Cyprus Mail so some of you guys can put the conspiracy to rest.
First off the CM is 100 per cent Greek Cypriot owned and has been for the past 60 years. It is funded by advertising unike such crap as Haravghi, which is funded by a political party and toes the party line in all things, or Simerini, which also has is own agenda, mainly ultra patriotism. Phileleftheros will brown nose whoever is in power and a good portion of its articles are "sexed up" and exaggerated. Machi I needn't even mention in the same breath as the word newspaper, and Alithia tries I suppose.
Politis does a pretty good job but at the time of the referendum it also was accused of being funded by the Brits and the yanks.
So please don't talk about biased Greek Cypriot media unless you target all of them and stop cherrypicking the ones that you don't agree with, Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it's not true.
There are two sides to every story, sometimes there are even three or four.
All of the journalists at CM are either Greek Cypriot or connected with Greek Cypriots with one Turkish Cypriot contributor. The names are listed on the website as follows:
Jean Christou, Simon Bahceli, John Leonidou, Eleni Antoniou, Alexia Saoulli, Jacqueline Theodoulou, Leo Leonidou Constantine Markides, Elias Hazou.
There are also a number of local contributors on a Sunday such as Nicos Rolandis, a former minister and several others I can't recall who they all are at the moment.
If you see foreign names on CM articles it means they came from the major news agencies, and it also means they constitute the 'foreign news' element of the newspaper such as the articles by Gwynne Dyer. And to the person who mentioned Gwynne, it's a he, not a she. These people do not write anything about Cyprus so get over the notion that all the 'foreigners' at the CM are out to get Pappy.
Yes there are some strong editorials, and Tales from the Coffeeshop doesn't pull any punches but everyone is fair game and why shouldn't they be, if they deserve it. If Patrcolos reflects a certain political leaning it's his democratic right. He writes a gossip column for heaven's sake.

[miltiades]

Damsi , where have you been all this time .Congratulations for an excellent post , taken on board all you have stated and again well done.

[andri_cy]

Andri, can you enlighten us as to why Klerides and Makrides are no good? I should have included in the list Hadjidemetriou of EDEK and Kazamias, Christou, Toumazoz, Hadjigeporgiou and Mavrou of AKEL. All these are very serious and respected politicians and if anyone has something against them I would like to know the hard evidence.

All these people are in it for themselves. For the money they get paid to be politicians. I dont think any of them are worh a dime. I know you think I said that because you listed 2 rightwing people but its not that. I have no respect for any of them.

[miltiades]

Andry , I don't know much about most Cypriot politicians but I do know a a little about Mr.Klerides , and he most certainly did not fight as an RAF pilot during WWII , for financial reasons. He has served Cyprus for many years and was The man that all of Cyprus and the world looked upon to captain a stricken sinking ship in that summer of 1974. He was and still is a repected diplomat the world over.I ought to say that apart from distancing my self from parties with communist ideologies , I have no political affiliations or preferences what so ever

[Piratis]

So please don't talk about biased Greek Cypriot media unless you target all of them and stop cherrypicking the ones that you don't agree with, Just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean it's not true.

But Demi, you did exactly that. CM, Alithia and Politis are good according to you, while all the rest are bad. What is common between CM, Alithia and Politis? They supported "yes" in the referendum.

The same goes with Bananiot and his "wise/respected politicians" list. What common do they have? They are all "yes" supporters. According to Bananiot "yes supporter" = wise, while "no supporter" = cretin.

[Bananiot]

Andri you scare me with the ease you condemn people you probably do not know. You are sure that they are in it for the money and it is this conviction of yours that I find not only unacceptable but also unpleasant. Piratis managed to find a common denominator and this has simplified things for him. The point I was trying to make was that some respected people from all spectra of the political life of Cyprus had supported a solution that was daemonised by a President that should have told his people of the prons and cons, that is, to be critical of the plan in a scientific way and not set up scenarios of scaring people that they would lose their jobs, bear the brunt of the cost (remember the claim for 18 billion?) etc.

In the meantime, I hope that you do realise that Cyprus has been partitioned and nobody cares anymore in the international community and the better solution Papadopoulos promised once we were in the EU has never materialised. In fact, the % of Greek Cypriots who are at ease with partition is probably now more than 50% and this will be the biggest achievement of Papadopoulos and Christofias who are interested to retain power of the half that we are left with.

[andri_cy]

Bananiot you do not know me so you do not know who I know and who I do not. I have watched those people hog their seats of power for years. Just because my location says USA, it doesnt mean I have been here my whole life. I never said the President is any better. In my opinion they all suck and we need new blood. I find the way you talk to me like you know me unpleasant and unacceptable but I am sure that is not going to stop you. In the meantime, maybe you should respect other people's opinions and knowledge. You are not the only one who "knows". So give me a break.

[cypezokyli]

Cypezokyli , I think Piratis has already quite eloquently answered your question as to how we get the Turkish troops out.

yes yes , i know piratis analysis :

With the current balance of power the negotiations will lead nowhere.

which means wait for the USA to loose its number one position (if it happens and when it happens ) and hope that the new hegemon (if there is one and we dont have a new bipolar situation again ) is going to choose to support cyprus instead of turkey as an ally (and i do not see the reason why he should do) - or to go to the dream world , he will be a "benevolent" hegemon and he will pursue the fundamental human rights for all the people of the world equally.
just wait. it will happen one of these days. tuesday or wednesday dont leave the house , bc it might be the day , and we wouldnt want to miss it would we ?

Let me just use a cliche by saying that the process of achieving the utmost bust be carried out in an atmosphere of good will and co operation.Precisely>>> "It will come when the others realize that they have to show respect for our human and democratic rights, in the same way that we are willing to respect theirs. "

miltiades , is there a small tiny possiblity that we also have some things to realise ?

Piratis words . We have on our side the European chapter on human rights , respect of international boundaries , and a Europe that will as time goes on underline Cyprus as the major obstacle to Turkeys journey in to Europe.

i dont want to burst the bubble , but those papers in general matter when it sues certain powerful countries to remember that they once signed them. let me accept for a minute that indeed the AP was violating our fundamental human and democratic rights. accepted.
let me also remind you that it was a plan proposed from the UN . the bloody charter of the human rights "belongs" to them , and they forgot it in the AP.
the EU also supported the plan, despite the fact that human rights are even stronger in the EU context.
Now....what makes you believe that they will not repeat the same thing again ? on what grounds do you base these expecttions ?
if they did it once why would they refrain off doing it twice?
give me one good reason

Rest assured the US and Britain support Turkey for strategic reasons ONLY.

excuse me miltiades , but what do you mean by ONLY ?
do you consider that a "minor" detail ?

But even the US and Britain have to listen to Europe's call for the withdrawal of foreign troops from its soil , that of Cyprus.

when did they make such a call ?
and wasnt england included ?

The Turkish Cypriots have been encouraged by recent events and some might have been wrongly influenced to believe that in time the worldwide recognition of the ROC as the only legitimate nation will perhaps come to an end , and recognition of the occupied part of Cyprus will occur.

actually again what you say in contestable.
first of all , there was an almost 3-years period that the tcs did go out in the streets and we stayed back watching apathetic. this period we conviniently tend to forget.
second , after our NO , the tcs have droppoed the fruitless denktash policies (of trnc recongition ) and are playing on a more pragmatic level - namely the isolation, while in the meantime almost daily repeating that they are ready for negotiations (imagine the point we reached!!!) . whether they achieve that or not depends on us...but perhaps not only on us (perhaps also on the interests of some big powers) . and when /if it happens we are going to be rightly shouting that thats unfair , but if it happens, then..... unfair or not.... vartou rigani.

I think they are wise enough to know that the future of all Cyprus depends on the spirit mentioned above of "goodwill and co operation" Turkey with its 70 million plus population will not squander the only opportunity it has in becoming a European nation and reaping all the benefits , Agriculture beeing the main area to benefit hugely , but also all the foreign capital that the millions of Turks will repatriate by freely moving in Europe . The Turkish Cypriots will not rebel against the Turkish army but the day that it becomes crystal clear that they can live in peace with their Greek compatriots , that day will be the start of the Turkish troops becoming redundant.All of us must understand that we owe it to the future of generations to come , to put all our efforts towards securing a just solution and as Piratis states "The solution will not come with "pants down" policies " This is not a statement of an extremist or an appeaser but a statement of a true Cypriot.

the expression "pants down" is as general as a "viable and functionalbe solution" , it can mean 1000 different things.
dont bet on it that turkey will always bargain cyprus for the EU. let me remind you that it didnot happen up to now. usually we are realising our natural gases of veto , then go to brussels and do as the european powers tell us to do.

as for the day that the tcs will realise the above - i am not sure if you are listening to the tcs! and i am not talking about the "partitionists" .
read the articles of the tcs we "liked" up to now. those ones who have spend their lives fighting against denktash. ask them how the feel about the current situation or the current goverment.
but you might say : why the f*** should we care about what they have to say ? why should the fact that they stood up against denktash should matter to us ? they didnot kick the settlers and the army , so they are not doing enough.

i am sorry miltiades , but the tcs you are after i am not sure that they exist.
the same way as the "want to benefit on our loss" are nothing more than the creation of our imagination.