Cyprus-Forum.com

[andri_cy]

So in a country that black people are 18% do they only get 18% of the power or do they go for elections and let the people decide? Just asking...

[Kikapu]

Cyprus was a little bit like the " Animal Farm" story. You know how that goes, is where all the animals were equal until the pigs took over and wanted to rule the rest themselves, and if the rest refused they were killed.

Back to reality:

Everyone was equal in the Constitution in 1960 with checks and balances, by majority holding the Presidency and the minority having the Vice Presidency, where one could not do anything that would harm intrest of the other. Well, one day the majority did not want to play by the rules anymore, and wanted to adopt the majority rule concept, like most other Democratic Coutries. Well, Cyprus was no ordinary country like most others, just to have a majority rule type of Democracy, given their past history. That's why the British made sure that the minority would have a chance to survive by insisting on the provisions that were entered into the Constitution. Part of a Democracy is that you live and die by the provisions in the Constitution. If the rights of every individual can not be protected my the elected officials, who take an oath to protect its citizens and the Constitution, what good is the "one man, one vote" system. Democracy is not a "One Size Fits All". In every Democratic countries you have a Constitution (badly written or not ) which takes into account a lot of consideration on how to implement it to benefit its citizens. After awhile, if it needs to be changed, then you would go through the process in changing it, and not just impossing it to the citizens.

What would have been the major set back if the Constitution was left as it was?. I don't know there would have been any. Most of us would probably have never left Cyprus, and I would be speaking perfect Greek and having you as my neighbour. Our kids would have been best friends in Cyprus or outside. We would have had an Island of riches, people begging us to let them come in and live amongst us. Perhaps the British knew more than we give them credit for when they wrote the Constitution.

But there had to be those damn pigs that wanted it all.

[Kifeas]

Cyprus was a little bit like the " Animal Farm" story. You know how that goes, is where all the animals were equal until the pigs took over and wanted to rule the rest themselves, and if the rest refused they were killed.

Back to reality:

Everyone was equal in the Constitution in 1960 with checks and balances, by majority holding the Presidency and the minority having the Vice Presidency, where one could not do anything that would harm intrest of the other. Well, one day the majority did not want to play by the rules anymore, and wanted to adopt the majority rule concept, like most other Democratic Coutries. Well, Cyprus was no ordinary country like most others, just to have a majority rule type of Democracy, given their past history. That's why the British made sure that the minority would have a chance to survive by insisting on the provisions that were entered into the Constitution. Part of a Democracy is that you live and die by the provisions in the Constitution. If the rights of every individual can not be protected my the elected officials, who take an oath to protect its citizens and the Constitution, what good is the "one man, one vote" system. Democracy is not a "One Size Fits All". In every Democratic countries you have a Constitution (badly written or not ) which takes into account a lot of consideration on how to implement it to benefit its citizens. After awhile, if it needs to be changed, then you would go through the process in changing it, and not just impossing it to the citizens.

What would have been the major set back if the Constitution was left as it was?. I don't know there would have been any. Most of us would probably have never left Cyprus, and I would be speaking perfect Greek and having you as my neighbour. Our kids would have been best friends in Cyprus or outside. We would have had an Island of riches, people begging us to let them come in and live amongst us. Perhaps the British knew more than we give them credit for when they wrote the Constitution.

But there had to be those damn pigs that wanted it all.

Kikapu,
1. Is it fair for the 18% of the citizens of a country to be entitled to the 30% of all government jobs, and 40% of all police jobs? Is it fair when one citizen has 3 times more opportunity /probability to get a government job than another citizen, simply because he is the member of a different “ethnic” group?

2. Is it fair for the maximum 9%+ of the people of a country that is required to elect the vice president, to hold and control the fait of an entire country, on virtually and practically every single issue and policy in the book?

3. Is it fair for any citizen of a country to be formally (constitutionally) excluded (prohibited) from the right and the chance of becoming the president of his country, simply because he is member of a specific “ethnic” group?

4. In which other civilised country of the entire planet have you seen any similar absurdities and obscenities like the above? Is it Cyprus the only example in which its people is composed by multiple ethnic groups living intermixed and among each other? Is it only Cyprus the only example on the globe, in which its people have had conflicting interests and confrontations in the past? Where else have you seen any similar arrangements like those above?

5. You said that “After awhile, if it needs to be changed, then you would go through the process in changing it, and not just impossing it to the citizens.” And later “What would have been the major set back if the Constitution was left as it was?” Can you please tell me when and how did the G/C side change and /or imposed changes on the constitution, because I am not away of any such historical fact, namely for the G/C side imposing changes, set aside changing the constitution? When did this happen?


Can you please answer for me the above questions, preferably one by one?

[GreekCypriotGurl_UK]

bananiot

The above show total denial of historical circumstances that in every nation are important pointers towards the formulation of countries. In 1960 we agreed that the Republic of Cyprus would be bicommunal irrespective of numbers. We placed our signuture on an agreement and within three years we unilaterally decided that the agreement was no good and undemocratic. May be if we were big and powerful we could force our will but when you are small and weak you play with fire when you insticated a diversion from legality. We have paid a hefty price for our stupidity but still we do not learn.

bananiot your are wrong the GCs everyright to change the agreement the majority of Greeks voted for that dont forget majority rule voting is not undemocratic your just making excuses to appease the Turks its like in every coutnry if its france then its france people in the goverment cant you just wake up and see that Turks Cypriots hated Greeks and wanted to live under Turkish Rule also i would like to know why did the Greek Cypriots want to change the agreement for what reason?

[Kifeas]

Either we recognise the Turkish Cypriots as equal political partners in a new Cyprus where equality of the communities will be the corner stone and not mere equality of individuals or partition and forever loss of the northern part of Cyprus to Turkey. These are the two options and anyone can blow his head off with patriotic slogans but these do not help Cyprus. We have nothing to fear from our Turkish Cypriot compatriots, unless of course we are more interested in the loot of the resourses of Cyprus which we do not want to split with anyone else.

No Bananiot, apart from this 1% of losers sharing your perverted ideas, none of the remaining 99% of G/Cs is prepared to recognise as the corner stone of the political future of Cyprus, the equality of one “ethnic” group constituting the 18%(-) of the Cypriots with that of another group constituting the 82%(+) of the Cypriot people, simply because we do not live and exist on this island as mere members of the one or the other community, but also as individual Cypriot citizens. We are all prepared to accept the equality of the two communities, only to the extent that the other side is prepared to accept that we are not mere members of each one of the two equal communities, but also equal individual Cypriot citizens with each other on a 1:1 basis, and that both political notions should be equally accommodated and reflected in a future constitution, both in it’s letter and it’s spirit!

We are ready to accept that the two types of political equality, the community and the individual one, will equally and mutually constitute the corner stone basis of a future constitution.

If you believe that the above will mean partition, I will go further and say that if it indeed will be the outcome, then this will be a rather short lived one, since it is our firm intention to bring it to an end in the same way that it physically came into existence back in 1974, and as soon as the right opportunity will arise. Therefore, since you hold the above believes, and like another Cassandra you seat on the walls proclaiming the fall and the destruction of Cyprus, I suggest you do us a favor and pack up your things, take your family and get out of Cyprus and as far away as possible. This will be the best service you will do for Cyprus. Because we do not plan to adopt your views in any way whatsoever!

[GreekCypriotGurl_UK]

kikapu

Everyone was equal in the Constitution in 1960 with checks and balances, by majority holding the Presidency and the minority having the Vice Presidency, where one could not do anything that would harm intrest of the other. Well, one day the majority did not want to play by the rules anymore, and wanted to adopt the majority rule concept, like most other Democratic Coutries. Well, Cyprus was no ordinary country like most others, just to have a majority rule type of Democracy, given their past history

kikapu you have a nerve how dare you say that Greeks did not have a right to vote democraticly and how dare you say Cyprus was not like any other country so we did not deserve to vote democraticly you abvously hate democracy you Turkish Cypriots where like snakes in the grass.
you where given a Turkish Cypriot vice president in 1960 in the greek goverment that would count as very democracty for a 18% minority in any country but that was not enough you wanted to bleed Greek Cypriots dry it just goes to show me and anyone else with sence that you wanted to take country of Cyprus you wanted Cyprus to be part of Turkey no wonder makarios didnt like you he knew you for what you where

[Kikapu]

Kifeas,
I'll make this short and to the point. The answers to Questions 1 to 4 would be NO. Question 5. The Constitution was not ammended as you said, its just that Makarios was no longer going to live by it any longer and the rest is HISTORY. We can say that the constitution was badly written, depending from the Greek Cypriots point of view, then Makarios should have refused it and let the chips fall as they may. This is the telling reason on Makarios's thinking that, he did not care what the Constitution read, because he had bigger and better plans for the Greek Cypriot once the British left town. The problem with Makarios was, that he started counting his chickens before the eggs hatched.

There's no need in attacking Bananiot. He is a realist and want to tell it the way it is. I know he doesn't need me defending him, because he is very capable defending himself.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,
I'll make this short and to the point. The answers to Questions 1 to 4 would be NO.

Then why did you say that:

Cyprus was a little bit like the " Animal Farm" story. You know how that goes, is where all the animals were equal until the pigs took over and wanted to rule the rest themselves, and if the rest refused they were killed.

and then

Everyone was equal in the Constitution in 1960 with checks and balances, ..…

and then

But there had to be those damn pigs that wanted it all.

At last, what is the case then for you? Is it the case that everyone (every animal) was equal in the constitution (farm) until came the pigs that wanted it all, as you suggest in all the above 3 quotations; or the case that indeed not everybody was equal and that indeed there were unfair and discriminatory provisions, as it comes straight out of your negative (NO) answer to my questions from 1 to 4??? When have you been frank, and accurate in your claims? In your last post right above, or in the previous one to it?

[Kikapu]

Kifeas,
Once the agreement was reached then, one has to belive they were all in this together and that they would together make Cyprus work, therefore they were all equal in the eyes of the Constitution, which would have been the glue to kept the GC's and the TC's together. Just because we may not agree was was in it now, 46 years later, those at the time saw it differently, unless it was just a ploy to get the British out, and now we are where we are.

[cypezokyli]

We are ready to accept that the two types of political equality, the community and the individual one, will equally and mutually constitute the corner stone basis of a future constitution.

could you explain the above please ?
i am not sure i understood what you mean.

is there a way to design a system where both communal rights and individual rights (always in terms of voting ) are preserved ?
up to now i thought that it is either the one or the other.
thank you.