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Allowing Turkey a strategic military base

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby cypezokyli » Sun May 14, 2006 9:40 am

kalahari wrote:9) The United Republic of Cyprus formally invites its Turkish allies to have a strategic military base on Cypriot soil. The garrison should number no more than that of the British military base on Cyprus, and the base should abide by the same rules as the British base does currently.



i like your proposals kalahari. i only chose to comment on this one just bc it misses a necessary component. no gc will ever accept the presence of turkish army unless there is a greek army on the island as well.

the AP was suppossed after a certain period to have 950 greek soldiers and 650 turkish soldiers.
now once again the critisism from people who are sure of representing the whole no-voters came from both directions :
some said : the plan is depriving cyprus of a trustworthy army in case of a new attack
some said : all armies should leave.

for me i believe you got it right. the tcs are indeed primarily worried for their security - for historical reasons. for historical reasons the gcs do not trust the turkish army (and thats what you are missing) .

for me , the whole thing with armies, guarantees etc is simply symbolic. imo , in case for any reason the gcs decide to attack tcs (which they will not) turkey will come again militarily whether it has an army here or not , whether it is "legal" for them or not.
so in practise there is one thing we should do to avoid the turkish army coming again , and that is repsect our brothers.

(knowing that in this forum one has to spell everything out , no i dont believe the turkish army came (only) to protect tcs , but they did it only when we gave them an excuse. with two cents of brain , we can avoid giving such excuses in the future)
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Postby kalahari » Sun May 14, 2006 10:05 am

No matter what the covert reasons for the invasion, the ostensible reason was to protect the TCs from further slaughter at the hands of the GCs.

Now I know that certain members of this forum have a "selective" view of history, but not being of GC or TC extraction I don't need to pretend that certain things did and didn't happen. During his coup, Nicos Sampson slaughtered GCs and TCs alike. Hundreds of both. Official figures do not seem to be available, probably because certain members of the community wouldn't believe them anyway and could get very angry. Prior to 1974, while again no official stats seem to be available, it is completely safe to say that it was, as we say in England, "six of one, half a dozen of the other". We could argue until the cows come home about who is more to blame, but that would solve absolutely nothing and would probably make matters worse.

We need to draw a line and move on. Humility and diginity needs to be shown by both sides to allow this to happen.

And I completely agree with you that the presence of the army of occupation is completely illegal. So let's reduce their presence dramatically (the British have 3,500 troops based in Cyprus) and make their presence legal with laws that they agree to abide by, including the payment of a lease to the Cypriot government.
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Postby kalahari » Sun May 14, 2006 10:10 am

cypezokyli, my apologies my friend, I was composing my last post while you were posting yours – I was not ignoring it.

You are absolutely right of course, I agree completely, that the Greek army should also be invited to have a military base on Cypriot soil, abiding by exactly the same rules. This was a grave omission, and thank you for putting it right.
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Postby Dee » Sun May 14, 2006 10:23 am

kalahari wrote:No matter what the covert reasons for the invasion, the ostensible reason was to protect the TCs from further slaughter at the hands of the GCs.

Now I know that certain members of this forum have a "selective" view of history, but not being of GC or TC extraction I don't need to pretend that certain things did and didn't happen. During his coup, Nicos Sampson slaughtered GCs and TCs alike. Hundreds of both. Official figures do not seem to be available, probably because certain members of the community wouldn't believe them anyway and could get very angry. Prior to 1974, while again no official stats seem to be available, it is completely safe to say that it was, as we say in England, "six of one, half a dozen of the other". We could argue until the cows come home about who is more to blame, but that would solve absolutely nothing and would probably make matters worse.

We need to draw a line and move on. Humility and diginity needs to be shown by both sides to allow this to happen.

And I completely agree with you that the presence of the army of occupation is completely illegal. So let's reduce their presence dramatically (the British have 3,500 troops based in Cyprus) and make their presence legal with laws that they agree to abide by, including the payment of a lease to the Cypriot government.


You agree that the Turkish military is illigally on Cyprus, then you go on to say "let's reduce their presence dramatically" no matter how much you reduce the number, even if you just leave one soldier, he will be one to many! Turkish troops have no right to be in Cyprus! We don't want to "lease" sand to the Turks for a base, you want a base go build all the base's you want in your homeland!

And what about all the people the Turkish govt. has ship to Cyprus illigally do they get to stay? They need to be put on the same boat that brought them here and sent back! Or are the GC suppose to turn a blind eye?
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Postby cypezokyli » Sun May 14, 2006 10:25 am

kalahari wrote:cypezokyli, my apologies my friend, I was composing my last post while you were posting yours – I was not ignoring it.

You are absolutely right of course, I agree completely, that the Greek army should also be invited to have a military base on Cypriot soil, abiding by exactly the same rules. This was a grave omission, and thank you for putting it right.


then i agree to it :wink:

my personal preferences would be in the following order though : 1.no army 2. bicommunal army 3.(both) mamas armies.

but , as i said since i believe their meaning is symbolic , then it is not that important.

...
what is perhaps also very important, is the presence of a neutral army (again symbolic) in the first years of any solution. a number of studies appear to have shown the importance of such a force , and i cannot understand why the UN , rejected such a proposal in the AP.
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Postby sadik » Tue May 16, 2006 4:06 pm

cypezokyli wrote:
kalahari wrote:cypezokyli, my apologies my friend, I was composing my last post while you were posting yours – I was not ignoring it.

You are absolutely right of course, I agree completely, that the Greek army should also be invited to have a military base on Cypriot soil, abiding by exactly the same rules. This was a grave omission, and thank you for putting it right.


then i agree to it :wink:

my personal preferences would be in the following order though : 1.no army 2. bicommunal army 3.(both) mamas armies.

but , as i said since i believe their meaning is symbolic , then it is not that important.

...
what is perhaps also very important, is the presence of a neutral army (again symbolic) in the first years of any solution. a number of studies appear to have shown the importance of such a force , and i cannot understand why the UN , rejected such a proposal in the AP.


I prefer a symbolic bicommunal army. I think it's important to have it in order to develop a national identity. A non symbolic army has no use in Cyrpus. Even a large army by Cypriot standards will not be able to do much against external threats. For internal problems we should never use military power any way. I belive that the only way we can guarantee security for ourselves is by creating an alliance between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus (without giving any bases to anyone). Such an alliance will also be good for Turkey and Greece, however, for us, it's vital. If gods interfere and the Cyprus problem is somehow solved, we should start teaching diplomacy in kindergartens. I believe diplomacy will be the most crucial skill for Cypriots.
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Postby Kifeas » Tue May 16, 2006 5:45 pm

kalahari wrote: During his coup, Nicos Sampson slaughtered GCs and TCs alike. Hundreds of both. Official figures do not seem to be available, probably because certain members of the community wouldn't believe them anyway and could get very angry.


The above is a completely and purposely falsified claim. I would like to ask you to provide the source from which you got this information. It is not my intention to act as an appeaser or an apologist of the coup (quite the opposite, as my family was always on the opposite end of this movement,) however I feel it is proper to put the facts and events in their proper dimension, for the sake of historical accurancy.

First of all, the coup was not carried out by Sampson himself, but by many of the mainland Greek officers who were then seconded in Cyprus and in charge of the G/C National Guard, upon orders from Ioannidis, the Greek Junta head. Their aim was neither to slaughter any G/Cs or T/Cs but to overthrow Makarios and replace him with a pro-union puppet government. This puppet was found in the person of Nicos Sampson, after several other political figureheads of the G/C society, including former president Klerides, were asked and subsequently rejected the "offer." During the 5 days that the coup preceded the Turkish invasion (15/7 -20/7/74,) some 150-200 people from both sides (about 50:50) were killed (all G/Cs and no one T/C,) during street fights between the two fronts -the National Guard and the pro-Makarios government (special police) forces. Only a few unarmed civilians were killed (again all G/Cs) that happened to found themselves in the middle of fire exchanges. No mass murders of pro-Makarios civilians and /or surrendered forces took place, not even after the coupists took complete control of the most important posts in Nicosia and the other cities.

The coupist "government," under acting "president" Sampson, lasted only 8 days since the start up of the coup on the 15/7, or until 3 days after the Turkish invasion started on the 20/7/74. Until the time the Turkish invasion started, absolutely no T/C was touched. After the beginning of the Turkish invasion, it was only natural that the G/C National Guard -besides trying to defend the coastline at which the Turkish landing was taking place; it also had to take under its control all the T/C enclaves within and around the whole of Cyprus, since they were all armed and most of them were in a way acting as facilitating bridgeheads of the Turkish invading efforts, especially the north Nicosia one inside which Turkey was continuously dropping parachutists since the beginning of the invasion. Under these circumstances (a war situation,) yes T/Cs -mainly fighters were killed. No mass murders, as such, of innocent T/C civilians took place, at least during the first phase of the invasion, with one exception if I am not mistake of a few people (less than 10) in a village near Morfou. At the same time though, Turkish troops that landed in Kyrenia had already committed substantially more mass murders of civilians, especially in the surrounding villages to the landing spot.

Essentially, the only major T/C civilian mass murders that took place in 1974, were committed by G/C irregulars only after the second and more massive, powerful and violent phase of the Turkish invasion begun and which started on the 14 of August 1974, during which the Turkish Army initiated an attack with some 40,000 troops and 500 tanks that it had gathered in Cyprus during the previous 4 weeks, and it was also during this phase that Turkey proceeded and occupied most of the part that it now occupies, which eventually also brought the death to as many as 5,000 G/Cs (including the missing ones,) almost half of which were innocent civilians. After the commencing of the 2nd phase of the invasion, we observed the mass murders of T/C civilians in the Aloa /Maratha villages in Famagusta (some 200) and the mass murder of T/Cs of Tochni village (some 80 people,) like wise we observed the murders of many G/Cs who are on the missing list, after they were arrested by the Turkish troops during the first phase of its invasion and which were handed to T/C paramilitaries, supposedly to be kept as exchange hostages.

The coup itself and /or the coupists as such, did not attack and did not cause the death to any T/Cs, at least during the period before the starting of the Turkish invasion, nor the mass murder of hundreds of G/Cs as you claimed above.

These are the facts of 1974, and anything else you may read is pure propaganda nonsense! If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would like you share it with us here and comment on it.

As for official figures, yes there are such official figures! Who said to you that there aren't? Do you think we live in a huge country of millions of people, and therefore it is easy to hide or manipulate numbers or names? We live in a country in which almost everybody knows everyone else, and should a person dies in one place, everybody else gets to know it and also who he is, the next day in the morning. Not only we know who, where and when each one was killed, but also what each ones role was in 1974 and what each one did or did not do. The same goes for the T/Cs.
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Postby kalahari » Tue May 16, 2006 7:49 pm

Dear Kifeas

My respect is due to you sir, for a brilliantly argued and well researched post. You might not know me very well yet, so let me introduce myself. I am an Englishman who needs to move his family to a warmer, more stable climate following a severe head injury some years ago. We have selected Cyprus. I am on this forum not to wind people up (although many here would argue with that statement) but to try and learn as much as possible about Cyprus and its people and the way they think. I have found this to be a fascinating and highly enjoyable task. I have "met" many really good people, some a little reactionary, but in the main I see them as hidden friends with whom, every night, I find myself looking forward to talking. My part of this deal, as I see it, is to educate myself as rapidly as possible to what everybody else is talking and try to form an unbiased view of my own.

Now, this last part is actually very difficult – as so many sources (including in this forum) will give you reactionary, angry, spite filled information (or perhaps misinformation) that it is extraordinarily hard to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Your post is fabulous, because rather than just chastise me for being a supporter of the Turks (which incidentally I am not) you have given me real facts to build my opinion on. And it is like a breath of fresh air.

Thank you, my friend.

As to where I got the information from – I have been reading a wide variety of sources, both literary and web based. The general opinion that I have formed is the source of my statement. It was obviously wrong.

My apologies if I have offended, but I am actually very pleased that my post got the truth to come out.

Kindest regards,

Kal
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Postby miltiades » Tue May 16, 2006 7:52 pm

Kifeas , you are 100% correct .Thats how it happened .
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Postby cypezokyli » Tue May 16, 2006 9:17 pm

kalahari wrote:No matter what the covert reasons for the invasion, the ostensible reason was to protect the TCs from further slaughter at the hands of the GCs.

Now I know that certain members of this forum have a "selective" view of history, but not being of GC or TC extraction I don't need to pretend that certain things did and didn't happen. During his coup, Nicos Sampson slaughtered GCs and TCs alike. Hundreds of both. .


i believe kifeas has given provided an excellent post on the wrong info of your post.
nevertheless one has to mention , that this person and his likes (sampson), when one considers their past , could have been potential danger for the tc community. especially if they were in a position to stay and enjoy the monopoly of power the goverment offers. the fact as kifeas has posted is that the coupists didnot attack the tc community.

but it is important to take into consideration how the tc community viewed at the time the coup. imo , the tc community had sound reasons to be afraid of the coupists , who as kifeas will agree , they were a bunch of fascist. ofcource their aims might have been different , but as these couldnot have been known to the tc community , they had every right to be afraid.

with that i dont try in any way to justify the invasion (especially the second phase and the continued occupation ) , but to add another point that imo is important in understanding the whole 74 situation
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