Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Pirates,

You may very well be right. I vote for a solution and integration. When I was growing up in Cyprus, my whole adult family spoke perfect Greek. This was true to almost all Turkish families pre 1974. I have no idea if this trend has come to an end or not, which would be a shame if it has.

[Piratis]

I am glad we agree Kikapu. For me the important part is not integration in the sense that we became all the same. Cyprus is a multi-ethnic society and this is something that should enrich our country and not something that should become an excuse for conflict. So each Cypriot can retain his language, religion etc but at the same all should be equal citizens treated in the same way by the state regardless of their personal choices and background. What we need is tolerance and respect for what is "different" and equality of all people. This is the solution that will create a truly united Cyprus and eventually a strong Cypriot identity.

"Solutions" that lead to Aperthair and racist discriminations will be nothing more than part of the circle of blood and the never ending conflict between the separate groups.

[bg_turk]

I am glad we agree Kikapu. For me the important part is not integration in the sense that we became all the same. Cyprus is a multi-ethnic society and this is something that should enrich our country and not something that should become an excuse for conflict. So each Cypriot can retain his language, religion etc but at the same all should be equal citizens treated in the same way by the state regardless of their personal choices and background. What we need is tolerance and respect for what is "different" and equality of all people. This is the solution that will create a truly united Cyprus and eventually a strong Cypriot identity.

Imagine how differently things would have turned up if you had realized these ideas when you had the opportunity before 1974 instead of seeking union with Greece and bring the Turkish presence on the island to an end.

[Alexis]

Imagine how differently things would have turned up if you had realized these ideas when you had the opportunity before 1974 instead of seeking union with Greece and bring the Turkish presence on the island to an end.

How easy and obvious everything becomes with the power of hindsight.

[Kikapu]

Just because more Greeks died by the Turks does not make them more right. Unwarranted instigation of trouble makers deserve to suffer more in every aspect of their cause. It's too bad that innocent people end up suffering more, long after the guilty had gone.

Criminals deserve to be punished. Not innocent people.

Q 1..Should innocent people be punished because of the crimes that some others within thair ethnic group had committed in some others times?

Q 2..If the answer is no (my answer) then all illegalities and crimes against innocent people should stop immediately and everybody, TCs and GCs, get all their human, legal and democratic rights.

Q 3..If your answer is yes (your answer?), then TCs should be punished 100 times more that GCs, not to demand to be rewarded on the expense of GCs like they do now.

So what is your answer? Should inocent people be punished because of the crimes that some others within thair ethnic group had commited in some others times???

I was justed to bring your attention to other civil war conflicts of the past, around the world, that the end results usually end up people ending up living seperately, but remain somewhat friendly.

Q 4..There is no case in modern history were the majority was ethnically cleansed in order to create a separate state for a small minority. Or maybe you want to return to the middle ages and before where land grab and ethnic cleansing was a common practice?

I thought the Annan Plan would have created the first step towards that, even though not perfect, would have been better than todays situation.

Q 5..You thought that because you are a TC that with the disguised partition plan called Annan plan not only you would get the partition you demanded all these years but also EU membership and money. That plan was one sided pro Turkish plan and this is why it was rejected by GCs.

Once again the Greeks gambled for a larger piece of the pie.

Q 6..Larger than what? The 18% of TCs was given 29% of land and 50% power. It is obvious that the ones that insist on a much larger piece of pie are the TCs, and not the GCs who all they want is what belongs to them, their human and democratic rights, and nothing more.

With a unified Cyprus, it would have been a matter of time before the Turkish army withdrawn her forces off the Island. Political solutions will overcome military ones, as long as the civilians are in charge of the military.

Q 7..So why you do not accept a solution that will not violate the legal, human and democratic rights of Greek Cypriots?

Piratis
I've just noticed your response to my statement, so I will answer your questions now. Questions 1 to 7.
A 1..Innocent people should never have to pay the price for the doings of their country men. Guess what, they always do. These are the tragic realities of war. Some people choose to label them as "collateral damage" which takes out the humanity out of the suffering.

A 2..The answer is NO. We are in agreement on this one, question is how do you go about achieving it under the present situation.

A 3...The answer again is NO. However, you have a pattern of asking panishment to the Turks by 100 times more, since you think they did far more crime then Greeks. The fact is, if anyone commits a crime against humanity in the course of war, then they are War Crimes and the punishment should be equal to who ever commits them. If a soilder murders, rapes, destroy property or steals, should all be punished whether he is Greek or Turk. You cant give one soilder 20 years in jail and the other 2,000 years (20 x 100). If Turkey and Greece are playing football match and the Greek side commits only one foul and the Turkish side commits 10 fouls, but the game ends in a draw, say 1-1, well the Greece does not win the match because they committed less fouls.

A 4...My point was that after civil war, people tend to seperate themselves from whom they were fighting, but still maintain certain degree of friendship. Whether the majority does it to minority or vise versa is irrelevant really.

A 5...Well, the Island still is divided even without the Annan plan, so it got the G/C no where. If G/C said yes, it would have started the progress forward to help as many people as possible, and with time who knows how far they would have gotten . Now it has set them back a long way, since everything has come to a halt. I blame the EU commission for promising the g/c membership into EU come what may, because it stopped PapaD from negotiating with the t/c's . He thought perhaps the t/c would come to kiss his butt just to join with g/c.
You thought if the G/C said yes, T/C would have been in EU and have gotten money. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are the T/C not able to obtain a ROC passport right now, and if they can, well then they are in the EU which they have the same rights as you to travel or work abroad. Infact the T/C stood to gain no matter which way they or G/C voted on the reunification. It made thr G/C look bad in the eyes of the world for not wanting peace. Granted, the North still needs money and investment, but one day if everything is sorted out , it's going to cost ROC a lot of money to bring the North up to South standards, much like when East and West Germany re-united.

A 6...PapaD held out for more by not wanting to agree to the Annan plan, because he knew that time will come when Turkey will push hard to get into EU, and that he held the trump card by voting no to Turkeys acceptance. Let me tell you something. The EU members that control Turkeys destiny does not include Cyprus. If the others say yes, Cyprus will be crushed by other members. Cyprus may yet get its way because some other members will say no to Turkey's entry to EU, and that will seal the fate of North and South Cyprus, because gradually t/c will either want to have a 2 state living side by side, or they will vote to join Tukey, in which there will be no turning back.

A 7...The dye has been cast for the last 32 years. All Cypriots legal, human and democratic rights have been violated including mine since 1963. Most Cypriots stayed in Cyprus to enjoy their Island even under terrible conditions. We had to leave and have been gone for 42 years.

Note: I just want to say that I don't have a horse in this race and stand to gain nothing and perhaps lose some since we have small amount of land in the South. I would like to return to one Cyprus again before I die, and only the ones on the Island can reach across the table to the other side to reach an agreement. It will be painful but it cannot be more than the last 43 years.

[BirKibrisli]

Merhaba,kikapu...good to see another level-headed TC here,if I am permitted to compliment myself like that.Like you i have been away from our beloved homeland for 37 years now.With each passing year I realise how stupid and gullible both the TCs and GCs have been,to allow others to divide and rule us and then make us enemies in order to achieve their aims of global power play using Cyprus.And most of us continue to be stupid and gullible.
If you are new to this forum you've probably not aware of the scientific study(kept under wraps for over a decade) which proved that TCs and GCs share a gene pool which is different to the ones in Turkey and Greece.(Search for that thread here and you will be pleasantly surprised).In other words we are the same people genetically speaking,or blood brothers and sisters if you like,who have become sworn enemies and killed each other,raped each other,and most of us found ourselves as refugees or in exile for most of our lives.I have been advocating that we put our ethnic origins behind us,and forge an identity as Cypriots who happen to speak different languages and believe in different faiths.I happen to believe that we can learn to speak both languages if we have to,and can learn easily to respect each others religious beliefs.So what we need is a way to bring about reconciliation by admitting our wrongs of the past,stopping the blame game,apologising unreservedly to each other,and embrace each other as blood brothers/sisters that we are. It is however proving too difficult to knock down the walls in our heads and hearts.Those who helped us build those walls stand to lose too much if those walls come down.So we can't expect any help from anyone else,including our two "Mothers".We need to eventually leave our comfort zones and computer screens and start communicating with each other face to face,and start living with each other,working with each other,loving each other,and marrying each other and producing children who can only be Cypriots.That is the only way we will ever achieve a lasting and just and fair solution.You and i will probably not see it eventuate,but we can help get things started for the future generations.A marathon,as they say,start with one little step. But most of us are still afraid to take that step...

[Kikapu]

Merhaba back to you Birkibrisli,

Marathon, now that's a thought. Perhaps Cypriots can start an annual race that the route goes through both North and South. They can call it the "Cypriot Unification Race". Wouldn't that be great.
I always felt that the G & T Cypriots were one people seperated by language and religion, and to most T/C's, it was just the religion since most spoke Greek anyway.

I grew up in North London where most G&T Cypriots lived and still do for the most part. They worked together, shopped from the same corner shops, went to schools together, and even gambled together. Then I lived in the States for long time, and when ever I was in San Diego, I could not help myself but go to a Greek restaurant at the "Gas Lamp District". The food, the music, the dancing would brighten my day. I felt I could have been Greek , Turkish or both at the same time. Then one time I was in Florida at a small town called "Tarpon Springs" which has quiet a few Greeks living there, where they also do sponge diving. So naturally, I went into one of many Greek restaurant where on the wall, was a painted map of Greece, Turkey and Cyprus. On the map of Turkey, it was written "The Terrible Turks" right across the map. this was a large wall. I did not walk out, instead sat down ordered my food, and engaged the owner into a conversation about the whole Greek / Turkish friction. We left each other respecting oneother. On another time I had a group belonging to an organization known around the world ( rather not mention it ) where we had people from all over the world on a USA visit. There happen to to be 4 Greek Cypriots amongst the group of 30+. Two brothers with their lovely wives. It took couple of days to break the ice, but we had a great time, and after 10 days or so we seperated with hugs and kisses. If they are on this forum, you know who you are. We had a group picture at the State Capital in Sacramento, California about 10 years ago. I know where they are from, and if I return to Cyprus for a visit I will look them up.

OK, where are you going with all this down the "memory lane" story you ask ? Well, I'm a Cypriot that experienced bad things in Cyprus as a child, and I love people from all walks of life. I may be able to hate a person that has done me wrong, but I can not hate the whole race. Turks and Greeks are just like any other people we deal with every day, because we choose to, so why not with each other. Hate some one if you must that did you wrong, but don't hate the whole race. If we all did this, we can get Cyprus on its feet again. I hope GreekCypriotGirl_UK starts to free herself from the hate she carries to the Turks.

[BirKibrisli]

Thanks for sharing your feelings and experiences with us,Kikapu...
The marathon idea is great. Why didn't I think of it?
This is exactly the thing they should be doing in Cyprus to bring the two communities further together.I don't know if there are practical reasons stopping such a race (which could be open to the whole world and called Peace and Reunification Run or whatever).
I will tell you one of my experiences here in Australia.When I first came to Sydney I came with my father(rahmetli).The cousin who sponsored us found us accomodation in a garden flat belonging to Greeks from the mainland.Being 17 and without my mother I was totally hopeless with anything domestic.My father insisted that he did the shopping and I the cooking.I still remember the first meal I "cooked".It was green beans with meat.After staring at the ingredients for a long time I swallowed my pride and knocked on our landlady's door with trepidation.When I told her my problem this Greek woman burst out in tears,gave me a big hug,and told me not to worry.For the next 18 months that we lived with them she became like a second mother to me,teaching me how to cook,how to clean how to sew etc,enough for me to cope till my mother got here.
After a while I was ashamed of all the negative feelings against the Greeks and GCs I carried with me from Cyprus,because I too had some very negative experiences during 1963/64 troubles.
Since then I felt nothing but warmth and affection for Greeks and GCs,realising that in our hearts we are the same loving,kind,generous people with a great passsion for life.A pit every TC and GC cannot have the experiences that you and I have had with the "other side".
There would be no Cyprus problem.

[Kikapu]

Birkibrisli,

People who live away from the " problem" really have a different view than those live in it. I'm not being insensitive to my Cypriot friends and being judgemental from my comfort zone. It seems Cypriots that live in foreign countries want peace more than those who live in Cyprus. We seem to understand that compromises need to be made, not all will get everything they lost, the picture of Cyprus may never look the same as pre 1963, better to salvage the best possible deal each side can get than staying the course, there's going to be "price paid" for the treatment of Cypriot citizens by the criminals. No need to point fingers anymore as who's to blame and lets not go back to 1571 as to why we're, where we are.

All these may seem too much to swallow, but lack of action soon, time by itself will once and for all settle Cyprus's future by having two separate communities. After such a time, even if there wont be a "green line" and people are free to live where ever they want, most will not want to live amongst their "opposite community". They will be compensated for their properties ( their parents properties to be more accurate ), and will continue living amongst their own.

Can you imagine Turkish Cypriots that have been uprooted from their homes and land in 1963-64 ( 42 years ago ) and the Greeks Cypriots uprooted from their homes and land in 1974 (32 years ago) and if everyone is waiting for Turkeys entry to EU to solve the Cyprus problem, then add another 10 to 15 years from now ( minimum ). After close to 50+ years of separation, with the second generation knowing only the North or South Cyprus, will not have desires to uproot and move to the "other side" even with all the protections they may be promised.

I'll say, take your loses and move ahead with what you can salvage now. Don't throw away"good time" after a "bad one". I don't have a crystal ball in front of me to tell the future, but ask yourselves if you ever thought we would be where we were today for the tc's back in 1963-64 and the for gc's back in 1974. If you want another reality check, what if Turkey is refused an entry into the EU? I put my money that Turkey will not be accepted into EU, and than what ?

[andri_cy]

Yes kikapu you are right. Sometimes you have to compromise to rget where you want to get. Nobody can argue that in 1974 atrocities werent commited, but if we only remember that and have nothing else to offer, then the cyprus problem is just gonna stay the cyprus problem and it will not be solved for a lot of years to come. We all just need to compromise.