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Piratis & company are stuck in year 1571

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:51 pm

Kikapu wrote:Piratis,
Once again you dive back to the past. I'm very happy to see one Cyprus for all to live in. The facts are, Turkey is not in Cyprus because of what happened before 1960, rather what has happened since.


In case there are naives left to believe that Turkey came and still is in Cyprus for any other reason, you are all making a fool of yourselves.

If you want to know why Turkey is in Cyprus, you only have to ask them and I believe they will have no problem giving you the right answer. In fact, they have already answered this question to you, before hand.


Read this article from Turkish Daily News, and you will have the answer you are looking for.


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=41114

Read paragraphs 5 and 6, which I quote below:

The premier's Islamist and pragmatist selves

Wednesday, April 19, 2006

Burak Bekdil

Never mind if the premier's chief advisor advised the Americans “to use this man instead of putting him down the drain.” That reflects the old and very humane paranoia Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his men feel about Washington's neocons -- the psychology of a man who fears those to whom he thinks he, partly or wholly, owes his rise. That's not new.

What was largely ignored about Cüneyd Zapsu's “very important” discussions in Washington was his suggestion (in defense of the Justice and Development Party [AKP] recently hosting the Hamas leadership) that governments should talk to terrorists when there is one-in-a-thousand chance for peace. That's new. Mr. Zapsu did not make it clear whether his assertion covers all terrorist organizations, including the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), or only those to which his party bosses feel closer in ideology. Once again, the prime minister is squeezed between his ideological self and his pragmatist self.

Mr. Erdoğan's endless mental journeys between his two selves over the past few years have tired him. The “facts of life” have never allowed him to be himself and at the same time comfortably run the country. Instead of choosing between his two selves, he has tried to be both. The power fatigue is so visible these days that, recently, it even took the shape of a major gaffe that went unnoticed.

In subtle response to President Ahmet Necdet Sezer's warning of a systematic infiltration of radical Islam in Turkey and its institutions, the angry prime minister told an audience of conservative Muslim businessmen, "Let no one speak of the danger of (Islamic) fundamentalism.” In a democratic country anyone can say that, including a prime minister. But not Mr. Erdoğan.

Only a few months ago, Mr. Erdoğan signed Turkey's official threat paper, or the National Security Policy Document (NSPD), following several months of deliberations. The paper is a result of a thoroughly democratic process: a civilian secretariat at the National Security Council (MGK) drafted it; the members of the MGK, including Mr. Erdoğan, reviewed it, probably several times; it came to ministers' desks for governmental review and go-ahead; and, finally, to the prime minister's desk for approval.

The NSPD lists Islamic fundamentalism as the top domestic security threat (along with separatism and extreme leftist activity). Foreign security threats include Iran, Iraq, Greece and Cyprus. For example, the paper maintains “casus belli” in the event that Greece extends its territorial waters in the Aegean Sea to 12 miles. It also rules out a troop withdrawal from Cyprus, a territory the paper deems strategically important for Turkey's security.


Anyone can argue for or against the contents of the NSPD. But it reflects the Turks' democratic choice, as a democratically elected government and its leader have thought it appropriate. So far, so good. But there is something significantly wrong with what happened after.

When Mr. Erdoğan said no one should speak of the danger of Islamic fundamentalism, he ridiculed himself in many ways. He not only contradicted his own signature on the NSPD; he also implied that he did not take the threat paper seriously. Now he should ask himself tough questions.

If “no one should speak of the danger of (Islamic) fundamentalism,” why does the NSPD put Islamic fundamentalism as the top domestic security threat? Did the prime minister sign the top security paper without reading it? Did he not sign it? Is the MGK a worthless body that deals with “ghosts” and not threats? Which Mr. Erdoğan is telling the truth: the one who signed a document that sees radical Islam as security threat or the one who said that such a threat does not exist?

The NSPD is binding on governments after they endorse it. Governments (the Cabinet and the prime minister, separately or collectively) may revise the draft paper but are committed to it after they sign it. Mr. Erdoğan has introduced political jurisprudence: denying the contents of the country's most critical security roadmap after sealing it!

One wonders what will be next? Will Mr. Erdogan deny that separatist terror is a domestic security threat? Will his men in Parliament annul the casus belli clause vis-à-vis Greece? Will his government order a troop withdrawal from Cyprus? Of course not. Mr. Erdoğan does not have any “ideological problems” with these other “threats.”

Mr. Erdoğan's pragmatist self (and survival instincts) probably sent Mr. Zapsu into the heart of what radical Islamists often view as the "Satan," and on a mending-fences mission! Similarly, his pragmatist self put the final seal on the threat paper, probably to avoid fresh tensions with the secularist camp. In order to balance two moves hard to digest ideologically, his ideological self roared at the Muslim businessmen's gathering: “Let no one speak of the danger of (Islamic) fundamentalism.”

Mr. Erdoğan will not change. He will keep on sending “peace missions” to foreign capitals to maximize his survivability and also host the enemies of these capitals. Behind closed doors he will keep on talking differently to the generals and outside differently to devoutly Muslim audiences. He will keep on talking differently to the Syrians and differently to the Americans. That way, he thinks, he can remain a pious Muslim and in power. But Turkey's political wasteland is full of men who thought the same way.


Anyone still having any doubts?

Ah, Bananiot, did you say you thought that by voting "yes" on the Annan plan, you was voting for the Turkish troops withdrawl? Think again!
Last edited by Kifeas on Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:13 pm

The above represents and reflects the diachronic official Turkish “National Security” policy, as it is dictated by the Kemalo-fascist regime /establishment that rules Turkey! As long as this country that is called Turkey, and which is the one that dictates almost everything upon the T/C elites and leaderships, is governed by the kemalo-fascist regime /establishment that breaths, breeds and nurtures on nationalism, militarism and distortion, we simply do not stand a chance in a million to achieve anything -no matter how noble it is- though dialogue, logic, reason and goodwill.

You will realise this once you will discover what kind and what sort of nationalism and nationalistic pride is the one that is cultivated and maintained by the kemalist regime of Turkey, which is one of the darkest and most notorious ones that have ever appeared on earth.
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Postby Kikapu » Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:31 pm

Kifeas,
I'm glad someone like yourself could make heads to tail on the newspaper article you have posted, because it went completely over my head. Maybe I'm just stupid. I'll say this though, every Tom, Dick and Harry country uses the "National Security" argument to justify their actions, be it military movement or to control immigration problems. It's easier than having to explain everything in detail.
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Postby andri_cy » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:50 am

Articles like these is what we need to be more widely informed. Thanks for posting it. It sure gave me a better insight on how Turkey politicians think.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:36 pm

Kikapu wrote:growuptcs,
Establish two seperate zones. One for the Greeks and one for the Turks. Then introduce inter marriages between Greeks and Turks, to which, eventually Cyprus will become one people and one nation. Cypriots probably have closer bloodline to each other than they would like to admit. I haven't meet a Greek person that I have not liked yet, so whats the problem. If all of you out there can imagine your daughters and sisters can become the wives of the other "side", then there's hope yet, and if not, your hatred to the other "side" will never be resolved.


I guess this idea did not go down too well since no one is talking about it. I guess this idea belongs to the "advanced thinking" class of people who are willing to be Cypriots first and to the rest of you,you are probably taking a shower 5 times a day to wash off that terrible thought of marrying someone from the "other side". Go easy on the "Raki" and the "Uzo", it was just an idea!!!
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Postby Alexis » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:57 pm

I guess this idea did not go down too well since no one is talking about it. I guess this idea belongs to the "advanced thinking" class of people who are willing to be Cypriots first and to the rest of you,you are probably taking a shower 5 times a day to wash off that terrible thought of marrying someone from the "other side". Go easy on the "Raki" and the "Uzo", it was just an idea!!!


Hi Kikapu,

I think you might be being a little pessimistic. If your suggestion hadn't gone down too well someone would probably have said something by now. I think more realistically, the average person probably finds your suggestion a little unlikely. That's not to say it couldn't or hasn't happened. something which would definitely get in the way is religion. Although in my experience Cypriots are hardly the most devout of people, they are culturally very attached to their religions, especially the Greek Cypriots. I feel that this would be the greatest obstacle to inter-marriage though. Otherwise a good idea, although I am sure that TCs and GCs can get married right now at registry offices abroad if they so wish, although I must say I don't know what the law in the RoC says regarding this if that couple then want to go and live in Cyprus (or marry there). I imagine it should not be a problem if both are citizens.

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Postby Kikapu » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:32 pm

Alexis,
I was only thinking the possibilities after the 2 sides wanting to live in peace and not now. But your points are well taken. Thanks.
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:03 pm

Just because more Greeks died by the Turks does not make them more right. Unwarranted instigation of trouble makers deserve to suffer more in every aspect of their cause. It's too bad that innocent people end up suffering more, long after the guilty had gone.

Criminals deserve to be punished. Not innocent people.

Should innocent people be punished because of the crimes that some others within thair ethnic group had committed in some others times?

If the answer is no (my answer) then all illegalities and crimes against innocent people should stop immediately and everybody, TCs and GCs, get all their human, legal and democratic rights.

If your answer is yes (your answer?), then TCs should be punished 100 times more that GCs, not to demand to be rewarded on the expense of GCs like they do now.

So what is your answer? Should inocent people be punished because of the crimes that some others within thair ethnic group had commited in some others times???

I was justed to bring your attention to other civil war conflicts of the past, around the world, that the end results usually end up people ending up living seperately, but remain somewhat friendly.


There is no case in modern history were the majority was ethnically cleansed in order to create a separate state for a small minority. Or maybe you want to return to the middle ages and before where land grab and ethnic cleansing was a common practice?

I thought the Annan Plan would have created the first step towards that, even though not perfect, would have been better than todays situation.

You thought that because you are a TC that with the disguised partition plan called Annan plan not only you would get the partition you demanded all these years but also EU membership and money. That plan was one sided pro Turkish plan and this is why it was rejected by GCs.

Once again the Greeks gambled for a larger piece of the pie.

Larger than what? The 18% of TCs was given 29% of land and 50% power. It is obvious that the ones that insist on a much larger piece of pie are the TCs, and not the GCs who all they want is what belongs to them, their human and democratic rights, and nothing more.

With a unified Cyprus, it would have been a matter of time before the Turkish army withdrawn her forces off the Island. Political solutions will overcome military ones, as long as the civilians are in charge of the military.

So why you do not accept a solution that will not violate the legal, human and democratic rights of Greek Cypriots?
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:11 pm

Bananiot wrote:Very easily I could tell you that it is you who is pro occupation together with all Greek Cypriots who ask for maximalist gains and thus cement partition and division of our country for ever. I have my conscience clear. I did not vote for Turkey to stay in Cyprus in April 2004.


You voted for partition in 2004. Fortunately this did not happen.
With that plan I, a Greek Cypriot, would have less rights in the north part of my own country than I would have in Lithuania or Ireland!! You call that unification??? Even Portugal and Latvia are more unified between them than what northern and southern Cyprus would be if we had voted for Annan plan and legalized the partition of our island.

And what are the "maximalist gains" gains that GCs demand? The maximalist gain that GCs demanded in the past was union with Greeece, while the TCs maximalist gains was partition. Today all GCs ask for are human rights and democracy for all Cypriots, while TCs insist on their maximalist demand for partition.

Is asking for human rights and democracy, something that even the last human being should have, a maximalist demand according to you????
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Postby Piratis » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:21 pm

Establish two seperate zones. One for the Greeks and one for the Turks. Then introduce inter marriages between Greeks and Turks, to which, eventually Cyprus will become one people and one nation. Cypriots probably have closer bloodline to each other than they would like to admit.


You answered your own question Kikapu. TCs and GCs are genetically very similar. What separates them are not their genetic differences but a conflict of interests.
TCs are promised by Turkey and UK/USA things that no other minority in the whole world has and gains on the loss of GCs.
The Cyprus problem will be solved when racial discrimination stop to be forced in Cyprus and all Cypriots are equal citizens regardless of their language and ethnic background. As long as this racist separation is maintained the conflict will continue. Apartheid is over even in South Africa.

Intercommunal marriages are good, but not something that can be planed as part of a solution. Marriage is a personal choice of each individual, not something that can be planned by the state.
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