Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

if we veto Turkey, it will lead as nowhere. If we don't veto Turkey it will lead us nowhere again.

Even you accept that either way is not going to get us anywhere. So what's all this big fuss about Cyprus being in EU, having more power, demanding European solution etc.? Afterall, it all comes down to GCs and TCs/Turkey. We have to sit down and come up with a solution that is agreeable to both sides. This is the only way forward, not veto (or non-veto). And of course, the more European Turkey gets, the better it is for all of us. So I don't understand the logic of using the veto. I kind of want it to happen just to see what happens. Maybe GCs will finally realize where Cyprus is heading to with the current policies.

[Piratis]

The truth is that if Turkey is going to do anything to solve the Cyprus problem this will be done either by force or by giving them the incentives to do so. If they always get what they want, then there is no incentive and there is no result.

The question is: Can Cyprus go against the Turkish and mainly the American interests to create this incentive for Turkey?

The answer is: probably not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, right?

[-mikkie2-]

So, we have got a 'straight' answer from Bananiot.

I don't think it is a straight answer becasue I specifically asked what you would consider a solution to accept.

You say,

Also, things have moved on since last April. More aspects of the plan may need to be discussed and some of these aspects may not be in our favour. Do not forget, the other side has interests too.

That to me says very little, other than to say that certain aspects need to be 'discussed'. What aspects exactly in your opinion?

Also, can you give me examples of our isoltaion in the EU? Annan wanted us to have time for reflection after the 'no'. Well, the EU is reflecting also because they rushed with open arms to the 'aid' of the TC's only to smash their heads on a pane of toughened glass which they themselves put there, only they forgot where they put it!

Regarding vetoing Turkey on the 17th, I believe that we have far more to gain if we said yes. Firstly, it will at least show to the Europeans that we do not wish to stand in the way of strategic issues relevant to the block, but what it also gives us is 31 opportunities to remind Turkey of her commitments, 31 opportunities to say 'no' for the next 15 years.

The fact is as soon as negotiations begin, they will immediately stall because Cyprus cannot exercise its authority during the negotiations. How can Cyprus formulate its own views on the progress of Turkey if Cyprus does not have a diplomatic presence in Turkey? How can Turkey sit at a table and have to answer questions from a Cypriot delegation? How can Turkey not allow flights, and use of its shipping lanes to Cypriot registered vessels? How can she continue to have 35000 troops stationed in Cyprus and hindering the fundamental human rights of all Cypriots? All these issues are part of the 31 chapters that are to be negotiated. Turkey may be able to run, but in the end she cannot hide.

I therefore think that a solution to the Cyprus problem would have to be brought about BEFORE these negotiations begin. There cannot be another way. So, what we should be discussing is what we want from this next phase in order to get a solution that we can all live with. Preaching doom and gloom as Bananiot keeps doing is not an option. Our destiny is in our hands because now we have the tools to finally bring about an end to this sorry tale.

[metecyp]

The answer is: probably not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, right?

No, go ahead and try. I just think that your energy would be much better spent if you tried things that really helped for a solution. For example, trying to establish channels of communication between TCs and GCs is much more useful for a solution than trying to corner Turkey and force a solution (which I think is not going to happen anyway).

Our destiny is in our hands because now we have the tools to finally bring about an end to this sorry tale.

You really believe that, or you just got carried away?

[Piratis]

No, go ahead and try. I just think that your energy would be much better spent if you tried things that really helped for a solution. For example, trying to establish channels of communication between TCs and GCs is much more useful for a solution than trying to corner Turkey and force a solution (which I think is not going to happen anyway).

Unfortunately this is not the way things work. Turkey occupies part of Cyprus, and Turkey will leave only when leaving will be more beneficial for them than staying.

Who has the power to demand things that go against human rights and EU laws is Turkey and the Americans. The TCs alone do not have such kind of power (the GCs don't have such power either of course). Sure, if TCs realized that it would be for our common interest to stop demanding such things and join us to the fight for liberation then we would have good chances. But what are the channels of that happening? I would say that they are even less than Cyprus "forcing" Turkey into a decent compromise.

[-mikkie2-]

You really believe that, or you just got carried away?

No, I am not getting carried away. Nobody here seems to look beyond the end of their noses to see what is coming. Nobody here seems to realise the implications of Turkey starting negotiations with the EU.

All I am saying is that sooner or later Turkey needs to face up to things.
At the moment, all Turkey wants is to get a 'yes' on Dec 17th. Perhaps what is happening is Turkey does not want to give anything over Cyprus before December for fear of looking weak domestically. Perhaps after Dec 17th any decisions she will have to take over Cyprus will be more palatable to the ordinary Turk in the street, as now the future course of Turkey will be firmly set towards EU membership.

All I am doing is thinking of different scenarios. To me, they all lead to the same thing - the solution of the Cyprus problem before accession negotiation begin. If you think my views are complete rubbish then say so and give me some counter-argument.

[Bananiot]

In my view the solution will only come if it is based on the plan the UN formulated and endorsed by the EU. There can be no other plan. Annan plan No 5 is dead and buried. If ever we are called upon to decide in another referendum, there will be a new version in front of us. The philosophy will be the same, the contents will be different. For example, in a year from now, the number of settlers will be by far more than the one in April 2004. Thus, new facts will need to enter the equation. The building boom in the north is phenomenal. This will need to be taken into consideration too. Nothing is static, everything changes in time, producing new parameters.

I also like to say that I do not trust our government to deal with the current situation. This is a very tricky situation we are facing and we need seasoned politicians who are open minded and have real knowledge of how the real world works. I hear noises from thre partners in the government (EDEK for example) calling for the RoC to veto the efforts of Turkey to get a date in December. Flirting with the veto is dangerous in itself, let alone exercising it. Papadopoulos is surrounded by the most obscure politians, like Koulias and Pittokopitis, who are plain racists. Himself is a renoun rejectionist who is committed to a "clean" solution. He is stubborn and listens to nobody but himself. He is devisive and megalomeniac with an axe to grind due to the years of political isolation. Now that he finally surfaced on top he is bent on proving a point. He is a dangerous man. He is the last person I would trust to be at the helm at this critical hour.

[-mikkie2-]

This is a very tricky situation we are facing and we need seasoned politicians who are open minded and have real knowledge of how the real world works.

Do you know of any???

[Piratis]

we need seasoned politicians who are open minded and have real knowledge of how the real world works

-mikkie2-, what Bananiot means by "real world" etc, is dropping our pants and bending.

Sure, if they want to f*ck us, they probably can, no matter what we do. But what we prefer, to become cheap whores, or to brake their balls in the process? I choose the second.

[Bananiot]

You can be so childish at times, or rather, most of the time. Your questions do not touch the essence of what I wrote. They are just maintaining the gossip part.

Anyway, I believe there are resonable politicians in all parties. It is hard at the moment for people with a rational mind to surface due to the divisive and arrogant approach of Papadopoulos and Christofias who so easily brand anyone with a different point of view a traitor. The situation as it is today reminds me of the darkest times of history of both Cyprus and Greece which always resulted in catastrophy.

May be I am wrong. I suppose, we will soon find out.