Cyprus-Forum.com

[malaka]

Thanks fellas, I respect your experience with people like Malaka. While I am sure that I will get used to it, I am certain I will never truly understand it. Perhaps in that malaka was right.

Regarding the book recommendation, it would be great if Malaka did buy himself a copy. He criticised me and said perhaps I am the one who needed help. Never one to avoid criticism, I have just ordered my copy on Amazon, and am expecting it in three days time. Over to you Malaka. Hope you enjoy the read.

People like malaka????


Understand what It is pretty basic. The Turks not all of them came to my house killed family members stole everything forced us out at gun point
and you creticise me for having hatred in my heart call me racist etc
because I dislike the Turks that did this??
Then you suggest that I get help hence you are the one that needs help.

Call my views extreme call them what you like.

Post your address was a figure of speach I will put it to you another way.

If I come to your place kill some of your familly members steal every thing you own force you out at gun point Then you ask me to come and negotiate with you it would all be ok.

Common sense in any language says NOT NEGOTIABLE.
How would you feel Would you consider me your brother neighbor
I DONT THINK SO

malaka
i am sorry for your family members.
i also come from a refuggee family. in cyprus is very difficult to find families that did not experienced pain. every third cypriot is a refugee, and if we dont turn pain into forgiveness , but instead into hate it will only lead us to more hate and no solution. never forget also that the pain is not a gc exclusive. i could even give you examples from members in the forum and you can check it yourself. an old member called gabaston lost members of his family in cofinou (where only civilians were killed). birkibrisli -who could appear any time soon (hope he does.... perhaps realising that we are not the only ones to suffer will make you understand the complexity of the cyppro) , out of the fear of gcs was taught to use a handgranate by the age of 10 or 12 , to protect his family when the greek came... now, if every person in cyprus that suffered one way or another in the period 1955-1974, turned his pain into hate then we would never discuss the prospect of reunification. believe me, if i had the fear that what happened in the past had a chance of happening again, i would also oppose reunification. but as i said many times , you need to meet with tcs or turks, to get this picture of the barbarous killer out of your head. they are just people like us, and like us they want a solution to the cyppro.... the only problem is that they are as stubborn as we are.....

Why does everyone ASSUME (because I did not state it) that I like every GC and hate every TC. I respect your opinion you dont see me calling you an idiot, stupid, racist and more as some members are calling me.
Tell me how would you like to see the island unite. What happens to all the GC properties and the (TC props I have to say everything in here or I will be called a hypocrite by michalis 5354) What happens to all the Turkish settlers.

Please explain to me why the majority voted OXI.

[Kikapu]

Let me see if I can explain myself clearly as to what the Turkish Cypriots may be saying to themselves.... F*** me once shame on you.... F*** me twice shame on me. They have gotten use to living in their own little world for the past 32 years after 9 years ( 1963-74 ) of not knowing what would happen the next day. The Greeks Cypriots saying no to the reunification ( right or wrong, time will tell ) have only made the Turkish Cypriots more determined to form their own State. The best everyone can hope for would be a "marriage of convenience" to turn Cyprus into something like Swizerland, where they are Swiss first and German, French, Italian and Romanisch last. They all live in their seperate areas, but of course, they are free to live anywhere they want. With language and customs, most live amongs their own kind... But they are Swiss first. I don't live in Cyprus, so is what I'm saying is a bunch of nonsense, or is there some truth to it.

[cypezokyli]

malaka, you are the one who wrote :

Turks & Greeks have been enemies since the beginning of time.
Turks & Greeks will remain enemies.
The only solution for the Cyprus problem is for GC to take back what belongs to them by force.

you stated that turks and greeks have always been enemies (sth that i disagree)
you stated that it will remain like that (sth that i also disagree). i can tell you that i dont consider them as such.
and that force is the only solution.
to be honest i prefer your last statement rather than the first one :

Why does everyone ASSUME (because I did not state it) that I like every GC and hate every

well the first quote, ofcource make everyone assume that you hate tcs. if that is not the case, then i apologise for the misunderstanding. do you accept them as part of this island, and a community that we will live together with then in peace ?

.....
now let me start with this one :

Please explain to me why the majority voted OXI.

thats a question that i do not know the answer. i ve seen though many people, especially OXI supporters being quite sure that they know the reasons...
some claim that it is bc they wanted to preserve hellenism
some claim that greeks and turks cannot live together and will always be enemies (more or less what denktash argued for so many years)
some voted no, bc their land would have not been returned
some voted no , bc they were told so and they trust their parties
some voted no, bc they believed the plan was dysfunctional and / or unfair
some voted no, bc a solution was against their direct interest (i could give you examples if you want)
some voted no, bc they were gotten by surprise that a plan proposed a power sharing model (a powering sharing model that existed since 1960)
some others claim that if AKEL decided otherwise today we would have had a united cyprus
some others claim that the press (especially the tv channels) was overwhelmingly in favor of OXI (the channel hysteria is also easy to prove... i have already posted a document concerning cypriot press )

now, do you want me to give you an answer to that ?
the only thing i can say is that most people speculate, or believe that their personal opinion represents the 76% who voted OXI. or if they are yes supporters they believe that people were simply misleaded.
the only source that could be labled as scientific is alexandros lordos polls , where he also admits their limitations. you can read them in the forum, and if you are really interested you can ask alex your questions.
if you think you have an answer....which if i am not mistaken you have already stated that, let me know...

Tell me how would you like to see the island unite. What happens to all the GC properties and the (TC props I have to say everything in here or I will be called a hypocrite by michalis 5354) What happens to all the Turkish settlers.

ok.... lets see if we can get to some serious discussion

1. settlers. anytime soon, the counting of the population in the north should be completed and we will be able to have an estimate of the how many settlers there are actually there. on the how many should stay : i believe, that there have been certain humanitarian criteria that have been in general been accepted by both sides. that is : being married with a tc, being born in cyprus , and having lived in cyprus over a certain numbers of years (now...i hope you do see that all three are growing day by day we are not negotiating ) the problem with AP, was that it didnot really specify any upper limit , sth that was indeed a problem.

2. property : since we accepted bizonality (a uninanimity decision by our political parties, that represent our opinion, if i may remind you), we should expect that some refuggees will not return. in a number of discussions with tcs , (and with that i mean discussions) when you dont start by calling them barbarians or killers , they have always put a greater importance on their communal rights. the veto is sth they dont bargain , but when it comes to property they can even accept more refuggees returning than the ones specified by the AP. ofcource, certain realities that nowadays exist on land cannot unfortunately change. and those realities also worsen the more we dont negotiate.
to make a long story short, i believe that in any solution, sadly , the people of kyrenia will be the ones having less the opportunity to return and as a concequence should receive a fair compensation. the same holds for all other refuggees gcs or tcs that cannot return to their homes in other regions.

thats a very short answer , bc the land question is really complicated.

how can the island unite ?
1. change of attitude towards each other
2. negotiate. i never argued that the AP was good. what i expected after we rejected the only proposal we had for 32 years, was that on 25 arpil 2004 we are sitting on the negotiating table trying to change what we didnot like. moreover , realise that especially the aspects you mentioned - land and settlers - are likely to get worse in any future proposal , that is , time is not working in favor of us.
3. war is not an option

now....
how do you see a solution of the cyppro ?
please dont say war, if you are really interested in a discussion.

[michalis5354]

What happens to all the GC properties and the (TC props I have to say everything in here or I will be called a hypocrite by michalis 5354) What happens to all the Turkish settlers.

In life you need to learn to move on and leave the past behind . As many other countries have done and have flousrished!

My fathers family all originated from Kyrenia. I have also relatives that have been influenced by the 1974 events. I accept the experiences of the TC community from 1960 and 1974 that were living in an unceratin environment for 14 years I am so sorry for them as well but this is the result of human stupidity .

A. Einstein Two things are Infinite the Universe and Human Stupidity! Congradulations Einstein!

[michalis5354]

This is the reason I said many times that Papa should have been the first to ask the UN to proceed with new initiatives to find a settlement as soon as possible to END the human Suffering!

If anyone thinks that settlement will come with no dialogue then I m so sorry but he is an Ignorant!

[malaka]

malaka, you are the one who wrote :

Turks & Greeks have been enemies since the beginning of time.
Turks & Greeks will remain enemies.
The only solution for the Cyprus problem is for GC to take back what belongs to them by force.

you stated that turks and greeks have always been enemies (sth that i disagree)
you stated that it will remain like that (sth that i also disagree). i can tell you that i dont consider them as such.
and that force is the only solution.
to be honest i prefer your last statement rather than the first one :

Why does everyone ASSUME (because I did not state it) that I like every GC and hate every

well the first quote, ofcource make everyone assume that you hate tcs. if that is not the case, then i apologise for the misunderstanding. do you accept them as part of this island, and a community that we will live together with then in peace ?

.....
now let me start with this one :

Please explain to me why the majority voted OXI.

thats a question that i do not know the answer. i ve seen though many people, especially OXI supporters being quite sure that they know the reasons...
some claim that it is bc they wanted to preserve hellenism
some claim that greeks and turks cannot live together and will always be enemies (more or less what denktash argued for so many years)
some voted no, bc their land would have not been returned
some voted no , bc they were told so and they trust their parties
some voted no, bc they believed the plan was dysfunctional and / or unfair
some voted no, bc a solution was against their direct interest (i could give you examples if you want)
some voted no, bc they were gotten by surprise that a plan proposed a power sharing model (a powering sharing model that existed since 1960)
some others claim that if AKEL decided otherwise today we would have had a united cyprus
some others claim that the press (especially the tv channels) was overwhelmingly in favor of OXI (the channel hysteria is also easy to prove... i have already posted a document concerning cypriot press )

now, do you want me to give you an answer to that ?
the only thing i can say is that most people speculate, or believe that their personal opinion represents the 76% who voted OXI. or if they are yes supporters they believe that people were simply misleaded.
the only source that could be labled as scientific is alexandros lordos polls , where he also admits their limitations. you can read them in the forum, and if you are really interested you can ask alex your questions.
if you think you have an answer....which if i am not mistaken you have already stated that, let me know...

Tell me how would you like to see the island unite. What happens to all the GC properties and the (TC props I have to say everything in here or I will be called a hypocrite by michalis 5354) What happens to all the Turkish settlers.

ok.... lets see if we can get to some serious discussion

1. settlers. anytime soon, the counting of the population in the north should be completed and we will be able to have an estimate of the how many settlers there are actually there. on the how many should stay : i believe, that there have been certain humanitarian criteria that have been in general been accepted by both sides. that is : being married with a tc, being born in cyprus , and having lived in cyprus over a certain numbers of years (now...i hope you do see that all three are growing day by day we are not negotiating ) the problem with AP, was that it didnot really specify any upper limit , sth that was indeed a problem.

2. property : since we accepted bizonality (a uninanimity decision by our political parties, that represent our opinion, if i may remind you), we should expect that some refuggees will not return. in a number of discussions with tcs , (and with that i mean discussions) when you dont start by calling them barbarians or killers , they have always put a greater importance on their communal rights. the veto is sth they dont bargain , but when it comes to property they can even accept more refuggees returning than the ones specified by the AP. ofcource, certain realities that nowadays exist on land cannot unfortunately change. and those realities also worsen the more we dont negotiate.
to make a long story short, i believe that in any solution, sadly , the people of kyrenia will be the ones having less the opportunity to return and as a concequence should receive a fair compensation. the same holds for all other refuggees gcs or tcs that cannot return to their homes in other regions.

thats a very short answer , bc the land question is really complicated.

how can the island unite ?
1. change of attitude towards each other
2. negotiate. i never argued that the AP was good. what i expected after we rejected the only proposal we had for 32 years, was that on 25 arpil 2004 we are sitting on the negotiating table trying to change what we didnot like. moreover , realise that especially the aspects you mentioned - land and settlers - are likely to get worse in any future proposal , that is , time is not working in favor of us.
3. war is not an option

now....
how do you see a solution of the cyppro ?
please dont say war, if you are really interested in a discussion.

Greek and Turks get back all their properties settlers leave. 1960 agreements reinstated. Greece and Turkey stay out of it.
To be honest with you I cant see a solution like you stated both sides are stuborn as each other. Plus different religions and language. Other wise there would have been a solution by now. Hence the reason I stated the only solution is by force. Please dont take that as Iam all for war. You and I know that will never happen so I guess it will stay devided because neither side is going to accept an agreement that does not suit them. That is why Kofi Annan canned the UN held talks after the referendum isnt it.

[michalis5354]

M***aka nice to see you proposing someting but such a proposal has no chance of being adopted even in a million!

[kalahari]

Hi folks, and particularly Malaka

Malaka, from your initial premise, back at the head of this string, I assumed you were racist, malicious and even crazy – though not without good reason. I still believe that you are hot-blooded, but that's no crime in itself. I also believe that you are not particularly good at expressing yourself in English, but hell you should hear my Greek!

So the truth is that, thanks to one poorly phrased opening statement, I leapt to all sorts of assumptions about you and rather arrogantly assumed myself to on superior moral ground.

Your most recent posts have demonstrated another side to malaka that we have not seen before. A calmer, more rational malaka who I am already finding myself liking more. I find myself wanting to apologise for my earlier assumptions, and wanting to develop the conversation further with everybody, but particularly you. Thank God that cypezokyli took the time to answer your question with such resolute calm and consideration.

Thank God that michalis5354 is always around with his good sense and reason to keep the discussion moving in the right direction.

So I said I would apologise and I will. I have seen another side of you in your last few posts malaka, and I admit that I misjudged you. My sincere apologies.

Now please do not doubt the sincerity of my apology Malaka, as I move on to the next stage of my argument.

I admit that I found your opening statement abhorrent. But I did not write you off. I, we, our friends on this forum, talked about it and watched the discussion unfold. We came to understand your point of view, get a better understanding of where you were coming from.

Thanks fellas, I respect your experience with people like Malaka. While I am sure that I will get used to it, I am certain I will never truly understand it. Perhaps in that malaka was right.

Now I feel that I can understand you better. And, as we say in England, there's the rub.

So, I still disagree with you…

Hence the reason I stated the only solution is by force.

But we're getting closer to understanding.

I hope you respond again malaka, because I have learned a lot from you, including to have a little more humility.

Kind regards,
Kalahari

[kalahari]

Reasons why people voted OXI.

Let's make it quite clear that I believe, rightly or wrongly, that the OXI vote was NOT because of people agreeing with Malaka's opening statement.

I will also make it quite clear that, being a newcomer to all of this I have a very liimited grasp on the roots of the Cyprus Problem. But there do seem to me, even as new to this as I am, to be some very obvious reasons for voting OXI. They are as follows:

Property disputes would have had to have been brought before a third party court overseen by UN forces. Although it might have been very just, it seems to indicate that the status quo ante would not have been observed. Whether you are from the South or from the North, this sends out all the wrong messages.

A one sided weapons embargo, allowing people on the north side of the isalnd to import weapons, but not the south side. This strikes me as absolutely CRAZY! What the hell was Annan thinking of? Sure, make it a unilateral embargo, but one rule for one, another rule for another?

Finally, and what seems to me to be the most obvious reason, is the rejection by AKEL two days before. Hey Mr Annan, if the largest democratically elected party does not agree with your plan you should really consider a redraft.

I guess what I am saying is that the reason the OXI vote won in the south has more to do with the incompotence of the UN plan rather than the belligerence of the Greek Cypriot community.

Hell, I don't even understand it, and I would have voted OXI.

I think, far more telling is the vote that came from the north. These fellas are seriously fed up with the Turkish army of occupation – if only because keeping 40,000 red blooded guys in chow must cost one hell of a lot of money.

So I think there is room for hope here. Maybe Cyprus is closer to an agreement than you think, Malaka.

If only we can get everybody who is not involved directly (Greece, Turkey, the UN, England) to butt out and leave it to the Cypriots.

NOTE: I am trying my hardest to get my head around this issue, and openly admit I do not have all the facts. Please do not shout at me if I have said something really dumb!

[cypezokyli]

Greek and Turks get back all their properties settlers leave. 1960 agreements reinstated. Greece and Turkey stay out of it.
To be honest with you I cant see a solution like you stated both sides are stuborn as each other. Plus different religions and language. Other wise there would have been a solution by now. Hence the reason I stated the only solution is by force. Please dont take that as Iam all for war. You and I know that will never happen so I guess it will stay devided because neither side is going to accept an agreement that does not suit them. That is why Kofi Annan canned the UN held talks after the referendum isnt it.

at least thats a proposal...
my first comment is try to get used to the terms greekcypriots and turkish cypriots

1. land : what do you do with tc land that was used to extent larnaka airport ? thats a reality that i wanted to point out. similar realities exist in the north as well. but there we have even more complicated situations since pieces of land have been used for hundreds of thousand of pounds of investment. moreover the fact that we accepted bi-zonality , and gave a map (even though we were tricked in giving that map) will have the sad concequence that some refuggees will have to accept compensation instead.
unfortunately , the promise by our politicians that all refuggees will return is not achievable , and even worse they knew it all along. but for sure the number of people having the right to return could be more than the proposed in the AP. but for that to happen two people should sit on a table.

a question for you : assuming that the ECHR approves the property comission to be set in the north (even though i wouldnt predict that that would happen soon ) would you apply ?

stetlers :
i have set some categories that should stay or if you want , we cannot kick them out. so saying all should leave is also not achievable . what do you do in the case where :
a tc is married with a settler?
a person was born by settlers 20 years ago ?
a settler that lives here for 25 years ?


but i like the fact tht you agree to a return of the 1960 constitution.... that saves a lot of : what is democracy discussion....
that idea is also supported by a small minority of tcs btw.
and with some territorial adjustments , is....lets say... "discussable" .

greece and turkey stay out of it - tottaly agree. besides as i mentioned a couple of times up to now : turkey will always attack cyprus if we attempt to hurt tcs in any way , irrespective of the fact that they might or might not have the "right" to do that.

religion is not a problem. or if it was that would have been mostly from our side. the tcs are the less religious muslims in the world

language : very easy solution. introduce greek in tc schools and turkish in all greek school , from a very young age. in a generations time the problem is solved. these things are not impossible to pass borders. they are not problems , they are challanges. they have solutions.

as i have posted before, the trade between greece and turkey has grown 1000% in 5 years. no religious , historic or language problems there... it is called maturity not to fight with your neighbour.