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TURKISH GREEK BLACK & WHITE

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby malaka » Fri May 19, 2006 10:23 am

malaka wrote:
kalahari wrote:
Kalahari you have driven way off the track.
Read my post again.
All GC & TC legall owners south/ north get their properties back
If a greek built on a TC piece of land he has done that illegally he loses it same goes around for if a Turk done the same.

If a GC lives in TC house vice versa they both get out and the legall owner
gets his house back.
Why are you jumping up and down all of sudden backing TC and calling GC repossessors

I still do not get it TURKEY IS ILLEGALLY OCCUPING CYPRUS THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT AND YET YOU SUPPORT THAT ??????


Malaka my friend, I am in complete agreement with you that Turkey is illegally occupying Cyprus. If you read any of my posts you'll know that to be the case (and I know you have, my friend).

What I am saying in the previous post is this: your scenario will never happen (fact), could never happen (fact), and (in my opinion) should never happen. It would be, literally, impossible to happen, and the upheaval, grief, bloodshed and hatred it would generate would be so totally counter-productive that the island would probably be plunged into an even greater civil war than before.

All so that you can move back from Oz? Hell, you can do that now if you really want to. Nobody would stop you.

Unless it is, after all, just the compensation you're interested in?


So what you are saying everybody should accept what happenned and let Turkey get away with illegally occuping a country and move on.

You a very wrong I can not move back if I want because somebody is living in my house illegally and is rubbing in it my face that I can not do anything about it.


Kalahari if you agree with me that Turkey is illegally occuping Cyprus which means they are breaking the international law (right) please answer these questions for me.

Why do you agree that they illegally occupy?
What happens to a entity that breaks the law?
Do the courts negotiate with such entities?
What rights does the entity have once broken the law?
What right does the victim have?
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Postby kalahari » Fri May 19, 2006 11:09 pm

Why do you agree that they illegally occupy?


They invaded Cyprus in two waves in an act of illegal occupation, which could have been interpreted as an act of war. The international community has not recognised their "TRNC", nor its "government". They have been asked repeatedly to leave, but as nothing more forceful than that has been done, and because Turkey has the largest standing army in Europe, they are in no hurry to do so. The fact that they have not been removed by international force or diplomacy does not make their occupation any more legal.

What happens to a entity that breaks the law?


Theoretically, when an entity breaks the law it is tried by a group of its peers and a sentence is pronounced. It is the duty of the authority that pronounced the sentence to see that it is done. Turkey's case is noteworthy in that it has stubbornly shown nothing but contempt for the international community's authority in refusing to withdraw from Cyprus. Unfortunately, because Cyprus lacks and has lacked a clear independent voice on the international stage nobody has shown too much interest or cared too much to carry out punitive measures against Cyprus. Cyprus is seen as a wayward nation that has yet to display any continuity of purpose. I suggest that while Cyprus has this schizophrenic tendency of wanting to be Greek and then not wanting to be Greek it is unlikely to be taken seriously.

Do the courts negotiate with such entities?


No, not usually. But you have to ask yourself why they are not taking the Cyprus issue all that seriously. Again, I put it to you that the international community will not insist on Turkey being removed until Cyprus puts forward a reasonable and responsible (may I say "adult") attitude towards solving its own problem. In this instance, the "courts" are left with the dilemma that going to all the trouble (and it would mean trouble) of getting Turkey to withdraw, possibly having to use force to do it, might actually make the Cyprus problem worse.

What rights does the entity have once broken the law?


See above – under normal circumstances, the "courts" (in this case the international community) would see that the "sentence" (in this case withdrawal) is commuted. The entity's rights would be forfeited within the boundaries of this sentence.

What right does the victim have?


Honestly? In English law, the victim has little or no rights, and almost always less than the perpetrator of the crime. His bad luck is seen to be just that – bad luck. Or to put it another way: "shit happens". He may receive some counselling to help him come to terms with it and he might be able to obtain a restraining order on the perpetrator of the crime. The only right he has is to be able to see that "justice" has been done. In this case it has not, and nor is it likely to be done. The international community has proven itself to be a toothless tiger and the Cypriot government has been too unfocussed to generate any international sympathy. The international community knows that something ought to be done, but lacks the resolve or the stimulus to carry out any action.

The problem is that criminals are inherently bad people and have no regard for the law. This places them outside of the law, unless the law can wield a big enough stick to make them notice. In this instance, the international community has proven over a thirty year period that when it comes to Cyprus, they really don't care very much. Which, in my opinion, makes them as bad as, if not worse than, the perpetrators.

Any solutions that I have been offering are aimed at removing the Turkish army of occupation with the help of the international community. I feel that if Cyprus was to show some initiative in the process and make suggestions that everybody could see were basically well intentioned to all parties, some movement might be made.

Just saying, ad nauseum, that the Turks should go and go now will achieve nothing but the boredom of the international community and the derision of the Turkish government.

But that is just my opinion.
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Postby Kifeas » Fri May 19, 2006 11:35 pm

kalahari wrote:
Honestly? In English law, the victim has little or no rights, and almost always less than the perpetrator of the crime. His bad luck is seen to be just that – bad luck. Or to put it another way: "shit happens". He may receive some counselling to help him come to terms with it and he might be able to obtain a restraining order on the perpetrator of the crime. The only right he has is to be able to see that "justice" has been done. In this case it has not, and nor is it likely to be done.


Kalahari,
Are you British?
If indeed what you say above is the case in the UK with English law, then if I was in your place I would have declared that I am ashamed to be an English or a British citizen, and I would have left such a primitive country immediately, or I would have orchestrated a revolution to change things.
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Postby malaka » Sat May 20, 2006 7:11 am

kalahari wrote:
Why do you agree that they illegally occupy?


They invaded Cyprus in two waves in an act of illegal occupation, which could have been interpreted as an act of war. The international community has not recognised their "TRNC", nor its "government". They have been asked repeatedly to leave, but as nothing more forceful than that has been done, and because Turkey has the largest standing army in Europe, they are in no hurry to do so. The fact that they have not been removed by international force or diplomacy does not make their occupation any more legal.

What happens to a entity that breaks the law?


Theoretically, when an entity breaks the law it is tried by a group of its peers and a sentence is pronounced. It is the duty of the authority that pronounced the sentence to see that it is done. Turkey's case is noteworthy in that it has stubbornly shown nothing but contempt for the international community's authority in refusing to withdraw from Cyprus. Unfortunately, because Cyprus lacks and has lacked a clear independent voice on the international stage nobody has shown too much interest or cared too much to carry out punitive measures against Cyprus. Cyprus is seen as a wayward nation that has yet to display any continuity of purpose. I suggest that while Cyprus has this schizophrenic tendency of wanting to be Greek and then not wanting to be Greek it is unlikely to be taken seriously.

Do the courts negotiate with such entities?


No, not usually. But you have to ask yourself why they are not taking the Cyprus issue all that seriously. Again, I put it to you that the international community will not insist on Turkey being removed until Cyprus puts forward a reasonable and responsible (may I say "adult") attitude towards solving its own problem. In this instance, the "courts" are left with the dilemma that going to all the trouble (and it would mean trouble) of getting Turkey to withdraw, possibly having to use force to do it, might actually make the Cyprus problem worse.

What rights does the entity have once broken the law?


See above – under normal circumstances, the "courts" (in this case the international community) would see that the "sentence" (in this case withdrawal) is commuted. The entity's rights would be forfeited within the boundaries of this sentence.

What right does the victim have?


Honestly? In English law, the victim has little or no rights, and almost always less than the perpetrator of the crime. His bad luck is seen to be just that – bad luck. Or to put it another way: "shit happens". He may receive some counselling to help him come to terms with it and he might be able to obtain a restraining order on the perpetrator of the crime. The only right he has is to be able to see that "justice" has been done. In this case it has not, and nor is it likely to be done. The international community has proven itself to be a toothless tiger and the Cypriot government has been too unfocussed to generate any international sympathy. The international community knows that something ought to be done, but lacks the resolve or the stimulus to carry out any action.

The problem is that criminals are inherently bad people and have no regard for the law. This places them outside of the law, unless the law can wield a big enough stick to make them notice. In this instance, the international community has proven over a thirty year period that when it comes to Cyprus, they really don't care very much. Which, in my opinion, makes them as bad as, if not worse than, the perpetrators.

Any solutions that I have been offering are aimed at removing the Turkish army of occupation with the help of the international community. I feel that if Cyprus was to show some initiative in the process and make suggestions that everybody could see were basically well intentioned to all parties, some movement might be made.

Just saying, ad nauseum, that the Turks should go and go now will achieve nothing but the boredom of the international community and the derision of the Turkish government.

But that is just my opinion.



Klahari Turkey has been found guilty (illegally occupy) but they refuse to leave.

You say for Cyprus to sort it out by them selves.

That is like saying to a rape victim that has been gang raped you sort it out yourself although we know who done but we can not do antyhing
about it because we lack the resolve

Seriuosly what intitative to you want a rape victim to show cause this is exactly what you are asking.

What I am saying is the criminals that did this should pay for their crimes
like any normal humanbeing would once being tried and found guilty.


You even say it yourself criminals are bad people if you break the law therefore you are a bad person So what is the difference from a criminal and the Turk that broke the law in the fisrt place?
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Postby kalahari » Sat May 20, 2006 8:38 am

Malaka

That is like saying to a rape victim that has been gang raped you sort it out yourself although we know who done but we can not do antyhing
about it because we lack the resolve


Official statistic, quoted by the BBC

It is estimated that 50,000 British women are raped every year. Of these only 600 will ever see their assailants sent to jail. This is a lower proportion than any where else in Europe, the United States, Canada or Australia.


Malaka

You even say it yourself criminals are bad people if you break the law therefore you are a bad person So what is the difference from a criminal and the Turk that broke the law in the fisrt place?


Malaka my friend, if you re-read my previous post, you will see that my opinion of the Turkish goverment that invaded and continues to occupy Cyprus is the same as yours. Where we differ is that you seem to believe that the international community will force Turkey to leave. I believe they won't, so it's up to Cyprus to sort it through diplomatic avenues.

Kifeas

Kalahari,
Are you British?
If indeed what you say above is the case in the UK with English law, then if I was in your place I would have declared that I am ashamed to be an English or a British citizen, and I would have left such a primitive country immediately, or I would have orchestrated a revolution to change things.


As I have a family to feed, and I am one among 60 million, revolution orchestration is pretty low on my agenda. As for leaving the UK, that is precisely what we intend to do – moving to Limmasol in 2007.

One thing that living in the UK does teach you is to put up with incompetent government and get on with your life. Stoicism it's called.
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Postby miltiades » Sat May 20, 2006 9:09 pm

Kalahari , I wish you all the best mate with your move to Cyprus , having followed your postings I can see you are a resilient man and a very tolerant individual , as indeed the majority of English , Scotish and Welsh are. I would have been permanently living in Cyprus had it not been for circumstances beyond my control that force me to remain in the UK. My level of tolerance is a few degrees lower than your's and remaining in the UK does make me sad to see what the politicians of all parties have done to this civilized , compassionate society that the English people by nature are , just get on with life and live and let live.
Best of luck mate.
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Postby kalahari » Sun May 21, 2006 12:20 am

Thanks Miltiades.

We're going over in July, I'll let you know how we get on.

Best, Kal
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Postby miltiades » Sun May 21, 2006 10:38 am

Kalahari , where abouts Cyprus will you be staying ?
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Postby GreekCypriotGurl_UK » Sun May 21, 2006 1:31 pm

kalahari
GCG: Now I said I wouldn't talk to you anymore, but as you have asked a proper question without being rude I will on this occasion. I do not want to move to Turkey because their government has a terrible human rights record and are prone to invading countries illegally. Now I love the Turkish people, they are among the friendliest and most hospitable I have ever met.


kalahari of course the turks are friendly and hospitble to you because they want to fool you in beleiving there lies i dont beleive the Turks like english people they are very freindly to the english tourist only for finaicial reasons if a greek Cypriot visits turkey they are really mean and horrible and over charge you for anything you buy i know from stories i have heard from Greek Cypriots who have visited Turkey infact my sister visited and she told me a horrible storie when she went on a holiday to a Greek island and made the mistake of going on a day trip to turkey and she went to this market place in marmaris and at first the turks didnt know she was greek Cypriot and they where being really really nice and hospitable to her but as soon as she told them she was GC they called her names a dirty Greek Cypriot and spat on the ground my sister was frightened she couldnt wait to leave. but the turks are liars the put on a fake show of hospitality so people buy there things i have heard a story of how a english 60year old english women went to turkey for holiday and she met and married a 26 year old turk waiter and she had given him all her life savings of money then he wanted a divorce sure he was freindly and charming to her at first thats how turks are its all a lie
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Postby kalahari » Sun May 21, 2006 1:45 pm

Hi Miltiades

We are spending two weeks in Cyprus. The first week is very much a fact finding tour – we will be staying near Limassol (which is where we are currently intending to live) in a villa in Fasouri. We have employed the services of an introduction agency to show us around the city and fast-track us into Cypriot living. We will be seeing a number of local schools, although my daughters are currently very exited about one in particular: the Heritage. I am keen on seeing what parts of the city have the residential areas that most appeal to me – but I am particularly fond of shade and big, old trees. We want to live among Cypriots, not just British ex-pats. We visit Tenerife frequently, as my wife has an aunt that lives there, and when there we mix with the Tenerifees, not the Brits. British ex-pats can be awfully boring – congregating around bars to dwell on how things are at home and slowly get drunk. NOT for me!

For the second week, we will be taking things a lot easier, as this two week period is our annual holiday. So we have rented another villa in Aphrodite Hills near Pissouri. This will be for some unashamed relaxation, although I'm hoping we can still see some of the island's life.

I am a keen Laser sailor, so I want to get some sailing in if I can. I also love backgammon, which I understand is very popular.

Do you know the area?
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