michalis5354 if you had read my post properly you would see i was responding to what bananiot said about ataturk
and also you say Erdogan is more constructive then why is Cyprus still divided what has Erdogan done that is more constructive i will never be satisifed unless the illegal Turkish Setlers and Turkish military withdraw from Cyprus
Is reunification possible with this attitude.
by GreekCypriotGurl_UK » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:34 pm
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by michalis5354 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:42 pm
GreekCypriotGurl_UK wrote:michalis5354 if you had read my post properly you would see i was responding to what bananiot said about ataturk
I replied based on the argument of yours that the policies of a country stay and remain the same.
and also you say Erdogan is more constructive then why is Cyprus still divided what has Erdogan done that is more constructive i will never be satisifed unless the illegal Turkish Setlers and Turkish military withdraw from Cyprus
Yes he was more constructive compared to previous leaderships in Turkey.
How can the troops be withdrawn If negoatiations do not start? This is the reason I think our side should have been the first to ask the UN to start a new UN round .
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by GreekCypriotGurl_UK » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:22 pm
michalis5354
michalis i asked you what has erdogan done that is constructive can you answer me? also why do we even have to negociate with the turks who stole our homes? if a theive steals from you he goes to jail you dont negociate with him so he gives back half of what he stole
Yes he was more constructive compared to previous leaderships in Turkey.
How can the troops be withdrawn If negoatiations do not start? This is the reason I think our side should have been the first to ask the UN to start a new UN round .
michalis i asked you what has erdogan done that is constructive can you answer me? also why do we even have to negociate with the turks who stole our homes? if a theive steals from you he goes to jail you dont negociate with him so he gives back half of what he stole
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by michalis5354 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:31 pm
And can I ask also what Papa has done that was constructive? I am not satisfied at all with Papa.
Erdogan stated clearly that the Cyprus problem has not been resolved in 1974 as previous leadewrships in Turkey claimed! What do you expect him to do else If both TCs and GCs do not sit down to find a mutual acceptable solution! Do you expect Turkey to go home when the TCs and GCs are not in aggreement and they do not talk with each other for some reasons?
Erdogan stated clearly that the Cyprus problem has not been resolved in 1974 as previous leadewrships in Turkey claimed! What do you expect him to do else If both TCs and GCs do not sit down to find a mutual acceptable solution! Do you expect Turkey to go home when the TCs and GCs are not in aggreement and they do not talk with each other for some reasons?
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by michalis5354 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:35 pm
TC and GC leadership they are also responisble for not behaving in a constructive manner to end the conflict.
The UN stated that Neither side has shown a real determination and willingness to end the problem , and I agree with that statement!
The UN stated that Neither side has shown a real determination and willingness to end the problem , and I agree with that statement!
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by michalis5354 » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:37 pm
There are many parameters in a problem. Seeing only one it is not the right way to go !
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by Bananiot » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:40 pm
Let me make it clear from the begining. I will not be affected in any way by the rediculous notion of Kifeas that my arguments are a tool for the Turkish Cypriot propaganda machine. I am not here to advance the case of the Greek Cypriots nor the case of the Turkish Cypriots. I am only interested in the truth because only the truth serves Cyprus as a whole.
Kifeas, through a long and often self repeating text, managed to conceil the central point regarding the intrcommunal strife that started in 1963. Thus if there is any historical distortion to be found, he will have to look elsewhere. He was very careful not to mention, as a critical factor that governed events at the time, Makarios's fixation with enosis. Makarios had taken an oath (Phaneromeni's church) to shed the last drop of his blood for enosis. Deep down he wanted to emulate Eleftherios Venizelos of Crete, who not only achieved enosis of Crete with Greece but also became Prime Minister of Greece. Enosis was the stated end goal for the vast majority of Greek Cypriots, AKEL supporters included. I have never shied from the fact that TMT and its nationalist core cared only for partition. Thus, we have two sides which are arming themselves in order to achieve their diverging aims.
Makarios is quite outspoken about it. At the same time he is the elected President of the whole of Cyprus. Yet he often talks (Panayia speach) about the "the Turk who is the enemy of enosis and must be subdued". His Beautitude does not believe in the Independed State of Cyprus. He wants to use independence as a stepping stone to achieving enosis. He sees the Constitution as a stumbling block to his target and before the ink of his signature dries out on the paper, he attempts to turn the Constitution over. He proposes his now infamus 13 points but before doing so he visists Ankara where he is welcome as a head of State. The kind and reasonable Inonu tells him to abandon the attempts to change the Constitution. Inonu goes as far as to tell him that he will be responsible for the bloodshed that will follow. Makarios is stuborn and on his return, he puts forward his propositions. Level headed politicians, like Klerides, were against the move but in the face of immense pressure by Makarios and his underground cronies, succumbed.
Kifeas claimed on a number of occasions that the Turkish Cypriot leadership only had to reject the proposals and all would have been okay, Back to square one, so to speak. This is absurd and shows very little understanding of how internal or international politics work. He expected the Turkish Cypriots to just go home and wait until Makarios made another effort, perhaps when his hand was stronger. These things happen only in fairytails.
The Turkish Cypriot community was steadily siding with the side of the partitionists because they were the only organised lot that could offer protection to them in the face of a Greek Cypriot onslaught. Even the many Turkish Cypriot AKEL supporter and PEO members were now extremely dissapointed with the left for it totally collaborated with makarios on the enosis issue. Thus, Denktash and Turkey were now the only realistic options for them, despite the murdering spree of Turkish Cypriot leftists by the TMT.
Thus we have now two distinct sides, one looking for Partition and the other for Enosis. That was the scene back in 1964 and these were the stakes. Kifeas claims Makarios did not want the armed conflict in Tylliria. That is not supported by historical facts (see Makarios Droushiotis's "First Partition" chapter 7. I believe the book now can be found in Turkish). It is true that the enclave was a source of weapons and ammunition from Turkey since it was the only one with access to the sea. But, at the time a war was raging and every side was jokying for position. The Turkish Cypriots decided that Partition was their only salvage when we went full ahead with our enosis plans. The legitimate government astonishingly wanted to bury independence 3 years after the state of Cyprus was formed. That was a huge mistake and a crime against humanity. It played of course into the hands of the few, at the time, Turkish Cypriot extremists, who slowly but steadily managed to bring the majority of the Turkish Cypriots on their side.
I would like to agree with Kifeas that the Greek Government was dead against military action to be taken against the enclave of Tylliria in August 1964. However, again, he fails to se the role played by Makarios and in fact he claims that Makarios was against too. That is totally wrong and I do not intend to try to convince Kifeas of the truth all unbiased and objective historians know. I would be wasting my time. Makarios simply let brainless Grivas do the dirty work. He supported wholeheartedly the capture of the enclave but was concerned only about the timing in view of the Greek governments denial to accept military actions, especially while efforts were made to solve the Cyprus issue. Once again, these efforts were to fail because the proposed plans veered away from enosis.
Finally, something of huge interest. While the Turkish Airforce was bombing Greek positions and villages in the area, a certain young Minister named Tassos Papadopoulos, went to the American Embassy in Nicosia with an ultimatum. Papadopoulos told the American that "the Greek Cypriots had plans (Akritas Plan) to take care of the internal situation in the case of Turkey invaded Cyprus. If the Turkish fleet enters the new limit of 12 miles, we will consider this as the begining of the invasion. We have estimated that this will give us 75 minutes to clean off the Turkish Cypriots so that we could defend Cyprus. We have the plan and the means to do this". On the next day (August 9, the Council of Ministers reiterated the ultimatum which now was sent to Turkey and called for all bombings to stop otherwise we would attack all the Turkish Cypriot villages. The Commander of the National Guard, Karayiannis, says in his memoirs that Polikarpos Yiorgatzis asked him to select two Turkish Cypriot villages to be bombed to the ground and erased from from the face of the earth, as reprisals for the Turkish bombing in Tylliria. Karayiannis refused to undertake the task of an executioner for unprotected people.
I said in the begining that I prefer to look at the truth in the face. I strongly adhere to the motto of Dionysios Solomos who very oftened declared that national interests are only served by the truth. I refuse to behave like a "Greek should behave" as Kifeas suggests. I find this an insult not only to the Greek race but also to all peace loving humanity.
Kifeas, through a long and often self repeating text, managed to conceil the central point regarding the intrcommunal strife that started in 1963. Thus if there is any historical distortion to be found, he will have to look elsewhere. He was very careful not to mention, as a critical factor that governed events at the time, Makarios's fixation with enosis. Makarios had taken an oath (Phaneromeni's church) to shed the last drop of his blood for enosis. Deep down he wanted to emulate Eleftherios Venizelos of Crete, who not only achieved enosis of Crete with Greece but also became Prime Minister of Greece. Enosis was the stated end goal for the vast majority of Greek Cypriots, AKEL supporters included. I have never shied from the fact that TMT and its nationalist core cared only for partition. Thus, we have two sides which are arming themselves in order to achieve their diverging aims.
Makarios is quite outspoken about it. At the same time he is the elected President of the whole of Cyprus. Yet he often talks (Panayia speach) about the "the Turk who is the enemy of enosis and must be subdued". His Beautitude does not believe in the Independed State of Cyprus. He wants to use independence as a stepping stone to achieving enosis. He sees the Constitution as a stumbling block to his target and before the ink of his signature dries out on the paper, he attempts to turn the Constitution over. He proposes his now infamus 13 points but before doing so he visists Ankara where he is welcome as a head of State. The kind and reasonable Inonu tells him to abandon the attempts to change the Constitution. Inonu goes as far as to tell him that he will be responsible for the bloodshed that will follow. Makarios is stuborn and on his return, he puts forward his propositions. Level headed politicians, like Klerides, were against the move but in the face of immense pressure by Makarios and his underground cronies, succumbed.
Kifeas claimed on a number of occasions that the Turkish Cypriot leadership only had to reject the proposals and all would have been okay, Back to square one, so to speak. This is absurd and shows very little understanding of how internal or international politics work. He expected the Turkish Cypriots to just go home and wait until Makarios made another effort, perhaps when his hand was stronger. These things happen only in fairytails.
The Turkish Cypriot community was steadily siding with the side of the partitionists because they were the only organised lot that could offer protection to them in the face of a Greek Cypriot onslaught. Even the many Turkish Cypriot AKEL supporter and PEO members were now extremely dissapointed with the left for it totally collaborated with makarios on the enosis issue. Thus, Denktash and Turkey were now the only realistic options for them, despite the murdering spree of Turkish Cypriot leftists by the TMT.
Thus we have now two distinct sides, one looking for Partition and the other for Enosis. That was the scene back in 1964 and these were the stakes. Kifeas claims Makarios did not want the armed conflict in Tylliria. That is not supported by historical facts (see Makarios Droushiotis's "First Partition" chapter 7. I believe the book now can be found in Turkish). It is true that the enclave was a source of weapons and ammunition from Turkey since it was the only one with access to the sea. But, at the time a war was raging and every side was jokying for position. The Turkish Cypriots decided that Partition was their only salvage when we went full ahead with our enosis plans. The legitimate government astonishingly wanted to bury independence 3 years after the state of Cyprus was formed. That was a huge mistake and a crime against humanity. It played of course into the hands of the few, at the time, Turkish Cypriot extremists, who slowly but steadily managed to bring the majority of the Turkish Cypriots on their side.
I would like to agree with Kifeas that the Greek Government was dead against military action to be taken against the enclave of Tylliria in August 1964. However, again, he fails to se the role played by Makarios and in fact he claims that Makarios was against too. That is totally wrong and I do not intend to try to convince Kifeas of the truth all unbiased and objective historians know. I would be wasting my time. Makarios simply let brainless Grivas do the dirty work. He supported wholeheartedly the capture of the enclave but was concerned only about the timing in view of the Greek governments denial to accept military actions, especially while efforts were made to solve the Cyprus issue. Once again, these efforts were to fail because the proposed plans veered away from enosis.
Finally, something of huge interest. While the Turkish Airforce was bombing Greek positions and villages in the area, a certain young Minister named Tassos Papadopoulos, went to the American Embassy in Nicosia with an ultimatum. Papadopoulos told the American that "the Greek Cypriots had plans (Akritas Plan) to take care of the internal situation in the case of Turkey invaded Cyprus. If the Turkish fleet enters the new limit of 12 miles, we will consider this as the begining of the invasion. We have estimated that this will give us 75 minutes to clean off the Turkish Cypriots so that we could defend Cyprus. We have the plan and the means to do this". On the next day (August 9, the Council of Ministers reiterated the ultimatum which now was sent to Turkey and called for all bombings to stop otherwise we would attack all the Turkish Cypriot villages. The Commander of the National Guard, Karayiannis, says in his memoirs that Polikarpos Yiorgatzis asked him to select two Turkish Cypriot villages to be bombed to the ground and erased from from the face of the earth, as reprisals for the Turkish bombing in Tylliria. Karayiannis refused to undertake the task of an executioner for unprotected people.
I said in the begining that I prefer to look at the truth in the face. I strongly adhere to the motto of Dionysios Solomos who very oftened declared that national interests are only served by the truth. I refuse to behave like a "Greek should behave" as Kifeas suggests. I find this an insult not only to the Greek race but also to all peace loving humanity.
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by GreekCypriotGurl_UK » Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:58 pm
michalis5354
so is edorgan being constructive by admitting the Cyprus problem has not been resolved and yes i do expect Turkey to go home they should not be there illegally dont the GCs want there homes back in the north? dont the TCs want there homes back in the south thats what people want there homes but Turkey does not want to leave Cyprus EOKA and makarios are gone now so no use in blaming thme anymore and Cyprus is in the EU today and democratic so whats the Turkeys excuse for being in Cyprus still
?And can I ask also what Papa has done that was constructive? I am not satisfied at all with Papa.
Erdogan stated clearly that the Cyprus problem has not been resolved in 1974 as previous leadewrships in Turkey claimed! What do you expect him to do else If both TCs and GCs do not sit down to find a mutual acceptable solution! Do you expect Turkey to go home when the TCs and GCs are not in aggreement and they do not talk with each other for some reasons
so is edorgan being constructive by admitting the Cyprus problem has not been resolved and yes i do expect Turkey to go home they should not be there illegally dont the GCs want there homes back in the north? dont the TCs want there homes back in the south thats what people want there homes but Turkey does not want to leave Cyprus EOKA and makarios are gone now so no use in blaming thme anymore and Cyprus is in the EU today and democratic so whats the Turkeys excuse for being in Cyprus still
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by GreekCypriotGurl_UK » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:22 pm
growuptcs yes its greed but try telling michalis that
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