Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Suppose we are the politicians and we formed a legislature assembly comprised of equal number of GCs and TCs...


MicAtCyp, Piratis, Bananiot and -mikkie2- represent GC community; Brother, metecyp, Mehmet and i represent TC community...


Let's talk about which issues could be introduced as bills and whether they lead us to a deadlock or not...


Now a representative of the legislature assembly should introduce a bill to discuss and vote...


Let's see if it will work or not.

[brother]

ok i am up for this, fire away insan.

[brother]

PIRATIS SUGGESTION GOES:


As I always say, the final solution should create an independent, federal, democratic united Cyprus.

Independent:
Cypriots should be the only ones that can take decisions for Cyprus. Everything of course should be within the rules and spirit of EU. The UN and EU can guarantee our new state, but not Greece, Turkey, UK or other separate countries. Ideally, no foreign country should maintain troops in Cyprus, but an agreement can be reached for small armies to continue to be based here, but without the right to intervene.

Federal:
We will have a federal system. Each community will have its own state with its own police, educational system etc. Within this state the majority of residents should always come from the equivalent community, and special restrictions should be in place to maintain this. Each state will have its own parliament and laws as long as they do not contradict with the central government laws and the laws of EU.

The central state will be above the federal states and will take care of things that involve the island as a whole (economy, federal police, tourism etc). Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio. Critical matters will require not only a simple majority, but also separate majorities from each state.

Democratic:
The governments of each state will be elected by its own residents. The majority of residents will come from the equivalent community.
The central government will come from all Cypriots. If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote. We can adopt a system like in the US where president and vice president are elected at the same time and require that they are from different communities.

United:
One and only citizenship, a united economy, freedom of movement, goods and services. We are all Cypriots first and above all.

----------------------------------

Some of the above can come gradually during a specified time frame. During this time we will build trust and friendship, we will restructure our educational system to reflect this, and we will build the infrastructure in the north.


This is just some main principles. If you agree we can discuss it in more detail.

LETS PLAY POLITICIAN

[insan]

brother,


Why don't you tell us your opinions about it, as a representative of TC community?


I've already pointed out mines... but here we go again:

Cypriots should be the only ones that can take decisions for Cyprus.

As it is a well known fact the ones who consider themselves as "Cypriots" is just a small minority on both sides of the island. In my opinion, before we call them Cypriots, we have to make some social, economical and cultural projects which bring them together, share, collaborate and feel the term being a "Cypriot". Moreover, we must find a way to bring both sides nationalists together because they will be the key point of two communities relations. As long as they keep undermining the relations of two communities; soon majority of two communities will become enemy brothers who afraid of each other.

Everything of course should be within the rules and spirit of EU. The UN and EU can guarantee our new state, but not Greece, Turkey, UK or other separate countries.

I don't think any of them would guarantee federation of Cyprus but who knows perhaps Piratis can convince them to guarantee federation of Cyprus.

Ideally, no foreign country should maintain troops in Cyprus, but an agreement can be reached for small armies to continue to be based here, but without the right to intervene.

Yes. Ideally that's it. In my opinion, speaking by taking into consideration of two communities past and present relations, extremists of both sides, sanction power of money, self-interest groups etc; I don't think the federal security forces of federation of RoC would be able to keep the public order.

Federal:
We will have a federal system. Each community will have its own state with its own police, educational system etc. Within this state the majority of residents should always come from the equivalent community, and special restrictions should be in place to maintain this.

"Majority of residents..." You should tell us what you mean by saying "Majority..." Piratis... Does %38 GCs, %20 foreigners and %42 TCs fit your definition of "Majority...."?

Each state will have its own parliament and laws as long as they do not contradict with the central government laws and the laws of EU.

Ok.

The central state will be above the federal states and will take care of things that involve the island as a whole (economy, federal police, tourism etc).

The authorities, duties and responsibilities of Central Government will be defined in FoC's constitution as it is in US. The main responsibility of the Central Government is to monitor the activities of constituent states and give advices. In US Central Government has no sanction power upon member states. It's the Supreme court has this power. Piratis should tell us some details about the structure of Central Government of FoC.

Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio.

Ok. Can you tell us a bit about the ratios you have in your mind?

Critical matters will require not only a simple majority, but also separate majorities from each state.

Ok. Can you tell us what could be those critical matters, Piratis?

Democratic:
The governments of each state will be elected by its own residents.

Ok. In TC constituent state; this might be %38 GCs, %20 foreigners and %42 TCs...

The majority of residents will come from the equivalent community.

I couldn't understand....

The central government will come from all Cypriots.

Ok. What will the percentages of GCs, TCs and foreigners be in Central government?

If the system will be presidential this means one Cypriot, one vote. We can adopt a system like in the US where president and vice president are elected at the same time and require that they are from different communities.

Is US a multi-communal federation? Can you be more specific please? And what system could it be other than presidential?



United:

One and only citizenship, a united economy, freedom of movement, goods and services. We are all Cypriots first and above all.

How will we protect TC comunity for not becoming a minority in its federal administartive area? Let's say as result of freedom of movement TCs have become %42 of total population in TC constituent state and a few years later dropped to %35...

Some of the above can come gradually during a specified time frame. During this time we will build trust and friendship, we will restructure our educational system to reflect this, and we will build the infrastructure in the north.

Can you tell us which one of the above... and its specified time frame? Can you give us some examples how trust and friendship will be built by whose projects?




And tell us your opinions how the settlers and properties issues will be solved....

[brother]

Quote:
Cypriots should be the only ones that can take decisions for Cyprus.

a commitee formed of 50%gc and 50% tc will ensure all decisions are in the benefits of all cypriots.



Quote:
Everything of course should be within the rules and spirit of EU. The UN and EU can guarantee our new state, but not Greece, Turkey, UK or other separate countries.

Do not believe the E.U has the balls for this job, but a united cypriot police force seems like another way forward in the spirit of unity.


Quote:
Ideally, no foreign country should maintain troops in Cyprus, but an agreement can be reached for small armies to continue to be based here, but without the right to intervene.

Good



Quote:
Federal:
We will have a federal system. Each community will have its own state with its own police, educational system etc. Within this state the majority of residents should always come from the equivalent community, and special restrictions should be in place to maintain this.


Good


Quote:
Each state will have its own parliament and laws as long as they do not contradict with the central government laws and the laws of EU.

Good


Quote:
The central state will be above the federal states and will take care of things that involve the island as a whole (economy, federal police, tourism etc).


Not sure what you mean, need more info.


Quote:
Both communities should be represented with ministers and personnel according to a specified ratio.


Good


Quote:
Critical matters will require not only a simple majority


Not sure what you mean by this, need more info.


All in all not bad but need to iron out a few bits but can work.

[Piratis]

As it is a well known fact the ones who consider themselves as "Cypriots" is just a small minority on both sides of the island

I disagree. I don't know about Turkish Cypriots, but most Greek Cypriots consider themselves as Cypriots. Sure, many of them consider themselves as Greeks also, just like in the US some citizens consider themselves African, Irish etc. There is nothing bad with this (as long as it comes after being Cypriot) and I don't think that we need to oppress it.
One of the reasons that this GC/TC is emphasized is because today we are split into TC and GC and we fight between each other. If we get united and we have common and not separate interests then we will see ourselves a lot more as Cypriots rather than GC or TC. On the other hand, if the "solution" will be one that will keep our interests separate and conflicting this will keep the tense between us forever (and this is what some foreigners want. As long as we fight between us it is very easy for them to control us)

I don't think any of them would guarantee federation of Cyprus but who knows perhaps Piratis can convince them to guarantee federation of Cyprus. [/b]

If we ask for this together then I am sure that they would accept. The reason they wouldn't do this now is because some powerful countries want to play the role of "guardians" to control Cyprus and serve their own interests. If TCs and GCs together declare that they don't want UK, Greek and Turkish troops, but they would accept EU troops then I am sure EU would have no problem with this. (maybe until Turkey enters the EU they could have some soldiers also under the command of an EU officer)

Yes. Ideally that's it. In my opinion, speaking by taking into consideration of two communities past and present relations, extremists of both sides, sanction power of money, self-interest groups etc; I don't think the federal security forces of federation of RoC would be able to keep the public order.

I believe you exaggerate. Sure, criminals will always exists, but the times of 1960s and 70s are over and we should stop hiding behind the past. If anything would have happened it would have happened since 2003. Considering the current situation (cease fire - not peace yet) people have shown maturity beyond every expectation. After a fair solution is found the "ok" climate of today will become a good one, and there is absolutely no reason to worry about it.

"Majority of residents..." You should tell us what you mean by saying "Majority..." Piratis... Does %38 GCs, %20 foreigners and %42 TCs fit your definition of "Majority...."?

What do you mean by "foreigners"? EU citizens? If you mean those then the same rules that exist in all other EU countries will exist here also. There is nothing we can do about it. If its good or bad that EU citizens can come and settle in Cyprus is a different story, but I believe the majorities of both GC and TC wanted to be in the EU, right? So now we have to accept their rules, there is no way out of this.

When I talk about majority I mean that TCs will have a clear majority in the TC state. The exact number will also depend on the size of the TC state (which I believe should be around 24-25%). Maybe something like 65% TCs - 35% GCs. I believe 65% is a clear majority (almost double the number of GCs).

The authorities, duties and responsibilities of Central Government will be defined in FoC's constitution as it is in US. The main responsibility of the Central Government is to monitor the activities of constituent states and give advices. In US Central Government has no sanction power upon member states. It's the Supreme court has this power. Piratis should tell us some details about the structure of Central Government of FoC.

Not even the EU gives just "advices" to the member states. The central state will be responsible for things that involve the island as a whole and it will either execute the things that it is responsible for, or it will give directions to the state governments. E.g. if the EU tells us that in order to enter the Eurozone we have to meet such and such criteria, then the central state will make its planning and it will execute part of it, and some others parts will give to the component states to execute. For things that involve the component states separately (e.g. education) then the central state will not get involved at all, or it will simply give advices and help.

Ok. Can you tell us a bit about the ratios you have in your mind?[/b]

for personnel TCs should be around 20%. For ministers it can be around 30%.

Ok. Can you tell us what could be those critical matters, Piratis?

This can be discussed. What I was thinking about is matters such as modification of constitution, joining some international organization (e.g. NATO), some important foreign affairs decisions, decisions that involve huge amounts of money (e.g. Cyprus to host the EURO!) and things like that.

I couldn't understand....

I simply mean that the majority of the TC state will be TCs.

Ok. What will the percentages of GCs, TCs and foreigners be in Central government?

As I said above, for personnel it should be around 20% TCs. For ministers and other high positions it can be around 30% TCs. No foreigners.

Is US a multi-communal federation? Can you be more specific please? And what system could it be other than presidential?

Well, there are several communities in the US, but what I suggest is something different than what they have their. In the US both president and vice president can be from the same community. In Cypriots I suggest that president/vice president are elected together (like the US) but president and vice are required to be from different community. So either a GC president - TC vice, or TC president - GC vice.

How will we protect TC community for not becoming a minority in its federal administartive area? Let's say as result of freedom of movement TCs have become %42 of total population in TC constituent state and a few years later dropped to %35...

Well, freedom of movement doesn't necessarily mean that people should vote where they live. E.g. in Greece they have what they call "eterodimotes". This means that a person is registered as a voter say in Crete, but now he lives in Athens. When he votes he will vote as a Crete resident and not as an Athens resident. So in Cyprus we said that we will have up to 35% of GCs in the TC state. If more GCs choose to live in the TC state they can do so, but they will not be considered TC state residents and therefore they will not vote there. Other ways might exists to avoid this problem also.

Can you tell us which one of the above... and its specified time frame?

GC refugees that will return is one. Land that will be given to the GC state is another. These things can happen gradually in about 10 years time frame. Also everything else should happen gradually in 2-3 years. You can't have a central government and 2 component state governments from one day to the next.

Can you give us some examples how trust and friendship will be built by whose projects?

This needs to be planned. I believe the root of building trust and friendship is to create a structure where both GCs and TCs will have common interests and not conflicting ones. After that we can start programs that will educate children correctly and will promote friendship, we can have summer school programs where GC students can study Turkish in TC schools and vice versa, the government can give special motives to businesses created that have partners from both communities etc.

And tell us your opinions how the settlers and properties issues will be solved....

Settlers that are married with Cypriots can stay no questions asks.
Settlers that were not born in Cyprus should go.
Settlers that were born in Cyprus and are already old enough to live here without their parents should be given a compensation to leave. We should find a formula were it would be financially better for them to take this compensation and leave rather than stay. if they choose to pass on this offer then we can see what we will do. One option is to accept them as citizens, making it clear to them though that they should not expect to live on welfare. Another option is to give to them the same status that EU citizens have (they can live and work here but they can not vote). Or some other option...

We should try to give all properties back to their legal owners. Then they can decide if they want to sell them or not. In cases this is not possible they should be given a compensation withing a very short time frame.

[insan]

Alright re Piratis!

Keep struggle for what you believe is right for all of us. Perhaps your dream comes true, some day...


I'll send your proposal to some TC and Turkish dailies in order to get it published, inform the readers and propogate it.


You should run for the next presidential elections

I promise you my vote


Good Luck!


Regards

[insan]

BTW

To all "Cypriots", wherever they have been living and keep it alive...


Don't believe the politicians... They promise 100 things, forget %50 of it, do the opposite of %25 and postpone the remaining %25.


Though you know this better than me...

[mehmet]

Independent. I do a trade, Turkey in EU, no problems from greece or RoC on this and in Cyprus a unitary state. In doing so you strengthen democracy in Turkey and you offer Turkish Cypriots the guarantees from being in the EU that their human rights will be subject to laws outside Cyprus in case some priests or their followers who wrap themselves in Greek flag whilst claiming to be Cypriots first try some funny business again in the future.

Federal No. Let's have one country, let's have organised teurn of properties so we don't get incidents with villagers trying to do some rough justice, let's have UN facilitating this process, they are already here anyway. In return lets show compassion to those who are not Cypriot born, along the lines Piratis begin to describe but so that ultimately it is the choice of the individual.

Democratic one man, one vote. Parties that promote prejudice and hatred banned. No quotas, let's see how fair minded our brothers in Cyprus are. If in five years there is clear discrimination agaisnt Turkish Cypriots we have quotas. We set up an Equal Opportunities Commission to be a watchdog on organisations, with legal powers if anyone is practising discrimination. It will be illegal to make speaking Greek or Turkish a condition of employment. In the meantime compulsory teaching of Greek and Turkish in schools to all Cypriots. All schools to follow a state curriculum with books to be scrutinised by a joint group of Turkish and Greek speaking people. Religion to have no involvement in school. Religion in the churches and cami's only, not in our schools.

united In time hopefully.

[brother]

YOU JOKE? BUT I FIND WHAT PIRATIS IS SUGGESTING VERY GOOD AND I ALSO BELIEVE IT CAN WORK.

PIRATIS KEEP THIS UP AND SEND YOUR IDEAS TO IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNITY, MAYBE THE CYPRUS WEEKLY ETC AND I WILL OFFICIALLY AS A TC SUPPORT IT, AND MANY LIKE MYSELF WILL DO THE SAME I BELIEVE, THIS IDEA HAS MERIT AND WILL WORK.

LETS GO FOR IT THIS IS A GOOD CYPRIOT PLAN, OR WE CAN NAME IT THE PIRATIS PLAN IF MOST OF IT IS YOUR IDEAS.