Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

Yes we must realise that muslims at all are the biggest nationalists!!!they are conservative and agressive...if we give north cyprus or south serbia to muslims they wont be pleasured and they will want more,as they see that you gived it easy...let them go to their country!!they dont need us,and we havent searched them to come!!

You really are funny man! Both Turkish Cypriots and Albanians are two of the probably least religious groups of people on Earth. And I don't mean among Muslims, I mean among all the other religions as well. You are trying to create a religious problem where there isn't one, in order to find supporters for your cause.

just for the record. i am a gc, and sadik is right. the problem in cyprus has never been a religious one.
actually if we really want to be honest, if there was any involvement of the church in the cyppro, that was from the orthodox church and in no case from the muslims.

our problem has been nationalism and stupidity - not religion

[GreekCypriotGurl_UK]

cyperzokyli

just for the record. i am a gc, and sadik is right. the problem in cyprus has never been a religious one.
actually if we really want to be honest, if there was any involvement of the church in the cyppro, that was from the orthodox church and in no case from the muslims.

our problem has been nationalism and stupidity - not religion

Cyperzokyli why you say your CG whne your abvously not and now you try to blame the orthodox Church for Turkeys war crimes how sad you are

[cypezokyli]

inta traoudin na sou po mana mou na s aresei ?

despite my poor english , i donot believe that my above statement has tried in any case to lift the blame of turkey regarding the cyppro.
the point was that religion has nothing to do with the problem.
as for the orthodox church being involved in the cyppro (as i wrote ) - let me remind you that we had a priest as an ethnarch , negotiator (who apointed him btw? ) and president for 17 years. normal states do not have priests ruling them

moreover if you want an opinion , i dont believe that the involvement of the church into politics didnot and doesnot do cyprus any good. but, for that you have every right to blame the ottomans - they were the ones who gave the church so many privilages that came at the point of being considered as representing the cypriots.

[Andreja]

Why should we give it to them?Why dont go to their countries,they have came there ilegaly so they will come back

[Piratis]

just for the record. i am a gc, and sadik is right. the problem in cyprus has never been a religious one.
actually if we really want to be honest, if there was any involvement of the church in the cyppro, that was from the orthodox church and in no case from the muslims.

The Ottomans for 3 centuries divided the people between Muslims and Christians. Christians having much less rights, paying more taxes etc than Muslims. Thats when the division and the problem started.

The other conquerors of Cyprus also had their own people as a higher class and gave to Greek Cypriots very little rights. However in the case of Venetians, Francs, Persians etc, most of them had left after their reign ended in Cyprus and the rest of them integrated with the rest of the population.
In the case of the Ottomans, not only they didn't leave and they didn't integrate after their reign had ended, but they also kept demanding that they maintain several of their former super-privileges. Even until today many TCs believe that each one of them should have more rights and more voting power than each Greek Cypriot.

Therefore do not dismiss the role that religion played in the Cyprus problem. It was a fundamental one.

The true permanent solution will come only when all Cypriots realize that they should be equal regardless of their religion, race or language. We have moved on from the middle ages and the time of the Ottoman rule. Now we should finally be allowed to have democracy and human rights for all without any racist discriminations.

[sadik]

The Ottomans for 3 centuries divided the people between Muslims and Christians. Christians having much less rights, paying more taxes etc than Muslims. Thats when the division and the problem started.

The other conquerors of Cyprus also had their own people as a higher class and gave to Greek Cypriots very little rights.

So the Ottomans were not the only "anti-democratic" conquerors in the history of the island. Strange...

However in the case of Venetians, Francs, Persians etc, most of them had left after their reign ended in Cyprus and the rest of them integrated with the rest of the population.

So we are guilty for not integrating back. With this logic, you are also saying that after the reign of the Byzantine empire ended, the remnants of the Empire, the Greek speaking population outside Greece, should have automatically integrated into the rest of the population.

In the case of the Ottomans, not only they didn't leave and they didn't integrate after their reign had ended, but they also kept demanding that they maintain several of their former super-privileges. Even until today many TCs believe that each one of them should have more rights and more voting power than each Greek Cypriot.

I have a feeling that you are confusing Turkish Cypriots with Ottomans. This is a big confusion Piratis. Turkish Cypriots are not Ottomans. Ottomans were an empire run by a family. Turkish Cypriots are related to the Ottomans, because some part of the TC population was brought over by them, sometimes against thier will, other part of the population are the local people who sided with the Ottomans out of fear or sympathy. That's as far as it goes. Turkish Cypriots revolted against the Ottomans at various times. In some of these revolts, the Church sided with the Ottomans.

If you are looking for an Ottoman collaborator, look no further than the Church itself. While the Christians were paying higher taxes, the Orthodox Chuch -in Cyprus and everywhere else- was getting a good part of those high taxes. They were happy when the things were going their way.

The true permanent solution will come only when all Cypriots realize that they should be equal regardless of their religion, race or language. We have moved on from the middle ages and the time of the Ottoman rule. Now we should finally be allowed to have democracy and human rights for all without any racist discriminations.

I agree in general. We can achieve this with a federal solution. It's also correct that we moved on from the middle ages and the Ottoman rule. It's especially wrong trying to use this Ottoman thing for attacking a part of the population. During the war in Bosnia, this was one of the main excuses that the Serbs were using when they were putting the Bosniacs in concentration camps, that they had collaborated with the Ottomans 700 years ago.

[Piratis]

sadik, please do not twist my words.

What I said was very clear: The Cyprus problem - the conflict of TCs and GCs in Cyprus, has its roots to the Ottoman rule when the Ottomans separated the population between privileged Muslims and second category humans - the Christians.

So we are guilty for not integrating back. With this logic, you are also saying that after the reign of the Byzantine empire ended, the remnants of the Empire, the Greek speaking population outside Greece, should have automatically integrated into the rest of the population.

Does a Greek in Turkey have more rights than any other Turkish citizen? By "integrate" I don't mean forgetting your language, religion etc. I mean that each Turkish Cypriot citizen to be part of the one Cypriot country that you are citizens of, instead of insisting on separation and super-privileges.

I have a feeling that you are confusing Turkish Cypriots with Ottomans.

I am not the one confusing anything sadik. How many times have you seen Turkish Cypriots in here identify with the "greatness" of the Ottomans? You can not identify with Turkey and Ottomans when it suits you and claim that you have nothing to do with them when it does not.

I agree in general. We can achieve this with a federal solution. It's also correct that we moved on from the middle ages and the Ottoman rule. It's especially wrong trying to use this Ottoman thing for attacking a part of the population. During the war in Bosnia, this was one of the main excuses that the Serbs were using when they were putting the Bosniacs in concentration camps, that they had collaborated with the Ottomans 700 years ago.

In the case of Cyprus it is the Turkish side that continues to selectively use the past as an excuse for crimes today. You can not condemn the Serbian crimes and justify the Turkish ones.

[sadik]

sadik, please do not twist my words.
What I said was very clear: The Cyprus problem - the conflict of TCs and GCs in Cyprus, has its roots to the Ottoman rule when the Ottomans separated the population between privileged Muslims and second category humans - the Christians.

Not all muslims were privileged. Muslim "aristocrats" definitely had a lot of privileges. The Church was also privileged. But muslim peasants for example, were suffering a lot. But don't get me wrong. I'm not objecting to the fact that Ottomans were treating people badly. It might be subject of an historical debate, and I might agree with you on many things. What I'm against is only giving part of the story. What I'm against is using the Ottomans as a tool in the current political discussion.

Does a Greek in Turkey have more rights than any other Turkish citizen? By "integrate" I don't mean forgetting your language, religion etc. I mean that each Turkish Cypriot citizen to be part of the one Cypriot country that you are citizens of, instead of insisting on separation and super-privileges.

Integration is not a one sided thing. We cannot integrate into something that does not want to accept us. The TC Cypriots have been ready to integrate with the GCs at various times many times. If this did not happen, we are not the only guilty ones.

I am not the one confusing anything sadik. How many times have you seen Turkish Cypriots in here identify with the "greatness" of the Ottomans? You can not identify with Turkey and Ottomans when it suits you and claim that you have nothing to do with them when it does not.

This is what I don't like about some of your arguements. You believe that it's OK to make nationalist arguements if someone has provoked you by a nationalist remark. Then it's OK to put everyone in the same category.

In the case of Cyprus it is the Turkish side that continues to selectively use the past as an excuse for crimes today. You can not condemn the Serbian crimes and justify the Turkish ones.

Is it only our politicians doing that? We have not fallen to earth from the sky. Look at Greek or Greek Cypriot politicians. Or the general public. Greek Cypriots supported the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia against Muslims, despite the fact that they had been subjected to similar attacks and ethnic cleansing in the northern part of Cyprus.

Despite what you might see here, Turkish Cypriots are mostly over the events of 60s and 70s. Don't accuse us of accepting the Annan plan, which seemed so evil to you. People showed a lot of courage in supporting a solution. We would also support a plan that would be acceptable to you at that time, if there was one in front of us.

[cypezokyli]

piratis:

Therefore do not dismiss the role that religion played in the Cyprus problem. It was a fundamental one.

i was reffering to the church and not to religion
but it is true that the ottomans separated people in millet. i am not sure if that has enything to do with the bicommunal clashes that followed 80-100 years later. i cannot recall religion being a reason to fight against each other.
and honestly , it is amazing how you can moove from the ottoman emppire to the voting rights of tcs!!!

sadik:

Look at Greek or Greek Cypriot politicians. Or the general public. Greek Cypriots supported the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia against Muslims, despite the fact that they had been subjected to similar attacks and ethnic cleansing in the northern part of Cyprus.

well the truth is that this didnot actually reach our media till recently. our position in that has also changed as we received more information on the subject. e.g. in milosevic funeral , only the communist party , and the extreme nationalist party attended (together receiving some 8-9% of the votes). had he died during the war the greek public and politicians would have been way more lets say "sympathetic". so when it comes to that , there was a change in the public opinion

[Andreja]

Greece and Cyprus were with us when it was the hardest...thank them!!!!
Turks wont leave just like that.They clamed it and now they want Turkey have whole Cyprus.
I must ask:Are people in north cyprus living poor and having a lot of kids?that situation is in Kosovo,in 30 years there will be duble more albanians there,and they also live poor