Cyprus-Forum.com

[MR-from-NG]

I know those principles very well. Shame you forgot about them back in the sixties and in some strange way remembered them again. But of course by then it was too late.

The Lord Nelson Principle is a simple one. LOOKING THROUGH THE TELESCOPE WITH A BLIND EYE.

This is basically what is happening to you guys, the EU, UN and the rest of the world are looking at your case really closely but what they don't tell you is they are looking with their blind eye. You don't matter enough to them.

[Piratis]

Shame you forgot about them back in the sixties and in some strange way remembered them again

I forgot them in the 60s??? I was not even born then. Yes, shame on that small minority of GCs and TCs that forgot them in the 60s, shame on you for forgetting them now, and shame on Turkey for never in her whole history applying to them and simply trying to find excuses for yet more crimes and human rights violations. Is there hope for Turkey ever adopting the principles of human rights and democracy?

This is basically what is happening to you guys, the EU, UN and the rest of the world are looking at your case really closely but what they don't tell you is they are looking with their blind eye. You don't matter enough to them.

This is why we are the only one who can fight for our own human rights. I know nobody else will.

[Piratis]

I do think of my view as objective, just because it is different from yours maybe you should have a little more respect for other people opinions as you may actually learn something new. Whats your basis for your opinion that i am not an objective outsider?

stuballstu, how can you be objective when you adopt the biggest part of the Turkish propaganda? Go over your posts here and you will see that in most of them you are trying to argue against my position that the solution should be based on democratic principles and human rights without racist discriminations. On the other hand you never seemed to bother to argue against the position of some TCs and tell them that human rights violations and racist discriminations can not be justified in the 21st century (you instead support their arguments). So it is very clear you are taking whose side you are taking.

Whilst i agree that all the parties did have a negative involvement and Turkey was the only ones to intervene under the Treaty of Guarantee

Here you go again. All parties had negative involvement but the 6000 murders and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people by Turkey is justified according to you, right? What Turkey did had nothing to do with the Treaty of Guarantee. According to the treaty any intervention should be to restore constitutional order. What Turkey did was an illegal full scale invasion against the sovereign Republic of Cyprus. Stop trying to justify them!

Is it a Cypriot thing that you must blame someone else and are not willing to take any blame yourselves. You say that Britain kept Cyprus as a colony by force and had divide and rule policies the divide and rule but maybe correct but look what happened when Cyprus gained independence

Is it a Cypriot thing that we want to run our country in a democratic way without being the slaves of anybody? British and Turks kept as us slaves for 100s of years, then they forced us to accept the constidution they designed, and then we are blamed that the intentionally dysfunctional constidution they forced on us did not work??
Before the Annan plan the Americans told us directly that if we do not accept it "a thousand bricks will fall on our head". The British did the same in an indirect way. If we had accepted the plan that they wanted to force on us, and that plan didn't function (as we know it would not) would we again be blamed??
Cypriots should be allowed to take decisions in a democratic way about their own country and create their own constidution. Then after we do that if what we will have will be in any way worst than what you have in UK, USA or Turkey, you will have the right to blame us.

[Piratis]

Logical and best solution is giving compensation to some GC refugees and keeping TCs majority in TC federal state.Any other solution that will make us minority is unaccaptable and none of the TCs will accept,be sure.
If any plan is made that is like this it will be rejected from our side this time and i'll be the "No" voter this time.

TCs are the 18%. 18% is a minority, it is common sense. Now as I said we accepted that TCs can be the majority in a separate federal state but this should be done in a way that will not violate the human rights of others. As it is explained in what you called "piratis plan" such ways exist. So if we accepted that you can have your own separate state (even if you had no right to ask for such thing) why you have to be so greedy and refuse to us even our human rights?

Derogations are protecting mechanisms and needed.

The EU laws that are based on democratic principles and human rights are the protecting mechanisms. Big derogations from these things is what leaves EU citizens unprotected and discriminated against.

Give me any example where whole Gc poulation that is living in some place is killed.Don't you remember population exchange that both sides accepted?

So killing some 100s in one location is not OK , while killing many 1000s all over the place it is? Overall Turks have killed 100 times more GCs, so stop selectively using the past as an excuse for even more crimes today.

There was NEVER a population exchange that both sides accepted. GCs were forced as gun point to abandon their homes and they were never allowed to return since. You call that "exchange"?

[stuballstu]

Piratis, Piratis, Piratis,

You spurt the shame stuff only on a different day.

Firstly i am still awaiting your apology for mis-quoting me? As i have gave you several opportunities I will assume that it is not forthcoming. Your attitude is mirrored in the Cyprus problem.

I've dont the wrong thing but apologise, your asking me the great Piratis to apologise??? Dont think so. I'm GC i've got the support of the UN, EU ECHR why should i need to apologise??

Are these your thoughts? If not i think you should at least apologise like the democratic and human rights supporter you claim.

stuballstu, how can you be objective when you adopt the biggest part of the Turkish propaganda? Go over your posts here and you will see that in most of them you are trying to argue against my position that the solution should be based on democratic principles and human rights without racist discriminations.

I do not believe all the Turkish propoganda. You think that because some people have an objective opinion which does not conform to yours that we are biased. I think you will find that your posts are moe biased and repetative than most other members of the forum. I am not argueing against democratic principles and human rights, i was brought up believing to beleive in them not brought up to hate someone based on their ethnic background. Did it say on your classroom walls "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk"? It didnt on mine so please dont tell me that some GC's havn't been brought up in an environment which is not discriminitory against other races.

Quote:
Whilst i agree that all the parties did have a negative involvement and Turkey was the only ones to intervene under the Treaty of Guarantee

Here you go again. All parties had negative involvement but the 6000 murders and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people by Turkey is justified according to you, right? What Turkey did had nothing to do with the Treaty of Guarantee. According to the treaty any intervention should be to restore constitutional order. What Turkey did was an illegal full scale invasion against the sovereign Republic of Cyprus. Stop trying to justify them!

I think you will find that Turkeys arguement is that their intervention was legal under the Treaty of Guarantee. Once constitutional order was restored then they should have left. Constitutional order still has not been restored and thats why they are still here. I would like to see them go as i dont think the tens of thousands of troops which are in Cyprus are needed. Maybe more should have been done in the 70's by all sides to restore constitutional order then Turkish troops would either be gone or in very few numbers. A settlement has to make sure that there is provision for Turkey's troops to downscale and leave. Why should i try and stop justifying it as personally i think they had every right to intervene, however i dont think that they have every right to still being in Cyprus almost 32 years later. If it had been a full scale invasion dont you think that were would be no GC's left on the island if that had been the case? Cyprus as a whole would be a Turkish island. Have you ever thought of that?

Quote:
Is it a Cypriot thing that you must blame someone else and are not willing to take any blame yourselves. You say that Britain kept Cyprus as a colony by force and had divide and rule policies the divide and rule but maybe correct but look what happened when Cyprus gained independence

Is it a Cypriot thing that we want to run our country in a democratic way without being the slaves of anybody? British and Turks kept as us slaves for 100s of years, then they forced us to accept the constidution they designed, and then we are blamed that the intentionally dysfunctional constidution they forced on us did not work??

Slaves my arse. Cypriots do have a blame culture, you cant deny that. No dis-respect intended. Cypriots both GC and TC always look to blame someone else, pass the buck i'm sure you'll find its called. The constitution did not fail but the people within it did. These people failed themselves and true Cypriots.

Before the Annan plan the Americans told us directly that if we do not accept it "a thousand bricks will fall on our head". The British did the same in an indirect way. If we had accepted the plan that they wanted to force on us, and that plan didn't function (as we know it would not) would we again be blamed??

Has "a thousand bricks " fell on your heads yet? No? Are the likely to? do you have any proof that the British did the same or is this just another mis-quote or mere speculation? I think you will find at the time of the Annan plan that all policitians around the world were saying that it was a plan to solve the the Cyprus problem and all nations within the UN sponsored the plan. What do you want to hear? That they all thought it was not worth the paper it was written on and wouldn't solve anything. Of course they all talked up the plan the same as politicians did with all previous attempts to solve the Cyprob. What i find ironic with the Annan plan is that PapaD and Denktash negotiated the plan, with the SG, couldnt agree on certain points then gave the SG permission to "fill in the blanks". The campaign for the "no" vote in the south was lead by the very man who helped put it together.

Cypriots should be allowed to take decisions in a democratic way about their own country and create their own constidution. Then after we do that if what we will have will be in any way worst than what you have in UK, USA or Turkey, you will have the right to blame us.

Agreed, but thats unlikely to happen until a settlement and should be part of a settlement a new constitution.

i'll await your apology for your mis understanding on earlier posts.

[andri_cy]

Did it say on your classroom walls "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk"? It didnt on mine so please dont tell me that some GC's havn't been brought up in an environment which is not discriminitory against other races.

I dont know who fed you that bullshit on rye, but our classrooms never said "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk". So please check out what you say before you say it, because I dont believe you were there and all you know is what you are told. Sad really.

[Alexis]

I think you will find that Turkeys arguement is that their intervention was legal under the Treaty of Guarantee. Once constitutional order was restored then they should have left. Constitutional order still has not been restored and thats why they are still here. I would like to see them go as i dont think the tens of thousands of troops which are in Cyprus are needed. Maybe more should have been done in the 70's by all sides to restore constitutional order then Turkish troops would either be gone or in very few numbers. A settlement has to make sure that there is provision for Turkey's troops to downscale and leave. Why should i try and stop justifying it as personally i think they had every right to intervene, however i dont think that they have every right to still being in Cyprus almost 32 years later.

Actually, Turkey's intervention was illegal if you read the relevant article:

ARTICLE IV
In the event of a breach of the provisions of the present Treaty, Greece, Turkey and the United
Kingdom undertake to consult together with respect to the representations or measure necessary to
ensure observance of those provisions.
In so far as common or concerted action may not prove possible, each of the three guaranteeing
Powers reserves the right to take action with the sole aim of reestablishing the state of affairs created by
the present Treaty.

Intervention was only accorded to the guarantors if they exercised 'the sole aim of re-establishing the state of affairs created by the present treaty'. It is in fact, their duty as those that intervened to ensure that the 1960 constitution is re-instated. Furthermore if you read article II:


Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit, so
far as concern them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly,
either union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island.

This was of course violated by both Greece and Turkey in the years 1960-1974, but that is another matter. Turkey's intervention, if it were to be in line with the treaty, should not have resulted in the partition of the island. Whichever way you look at it, Turkey's intervention was in complete violation of the treaty of guarantee. Of course you can argue that by the time she intervened the treaty had been violated by perhaps everyone (maybe not UK, although given recent evidence this is now debatable), but this is not the point, the intervention was illegal and this is why the TRNC was not given recognition and UN resolutions passed requesting that Turkey withdraw her troops.

If it had been a full scale invasion dont you think that were would be no GC's left on the island if that had been the case? Cyprus as a whole would be a Turkish island. Have you ever thought of that?

Sure, I have thought of that, and am glad it did not happen. Does this mean GCs should be grateful to Turkey? Perhaps TCs should be grateful to EOKA for not killing all of them? Perhaps if the GCs had really meant to eliminate TCs from the island, there wouldn't be any left by 1974, given their assault began in December 1963, have you ever thought of that? Doesn;t justify what they did do though does it?

PS: I am not trying to be deliberately provocative. I am simply trying to show the flip side of this increasingly rusty coin we call the Cyprus Problem. In reality things are never as the extremist would like us to believe. The extremist GCs would like you to believe that GCs/EOKA did nothing to the TCs in the 1960s, the extremist TC would like you to believe that Turkey's intervention was entirely justifiable in 1974. What should we really believe though?

[Piratis]

Apology for mis-quoting you??? How can copying and pasting exactly what you said be a mis-quote?

You said:

Are you serious? This is not the first time that you have made reference to TMT and as usual go on about the Ottomans. Whilst both TMT and EOKA committed crimes against humanity you have to admit that EOKA backed by Greece did try to "ethnically cleanse" Cyprus of Turkish Cypriots on a large scale

Anybody reading this sentence can understand that according to you TMT was not as bad as EOKA. I simply made this observation. Were did you see the "mis-quote"?

I do not believe all the Turkish propoganda. You think that because some people have an objective opinion which does not conform to yours that we are biased. I think you will find that your posts are moe biased and repetative than most other members of the forum. I am not argueing against democratic principles and human rights, i was brought up believing to beleive in them not brought up to hate someone based on their ethnic background. Did it say on your classroom walls "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk"? It didnt on mine so please dont tell me that some GC's havn't been brought up in an environment which is not discriminitory against other races.

Stuballstu, you are obviously biased. You are attacking me because I demand democracy and human rights while you say nothing to TCs support partition. How exactly are you objective?
If you do not believe in Turkish propaganda then who told you (and you apparently believed) that in our classroom walls it is written "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk"? This is an army slogan, not part of school teaching.
We didn't grew up in an environment which is discriminatory against other races, we grew up in a country partly occupied by Turkey and with our human rights violated by them.

I think you will find that Turkeys arguement is that their intervention was legal under the Treaty of Guarantee.

Well, it was not. What do you think? Was it legal or not?

Once constitutional order was restored then they should have left. Constitutional order still has not been restored and thats why they are still here.

Since 1974 they are the ones preventing constitutional order to be restored. Do you disagree?

Maybe more should have been done in the 70's by all sides to restore constitutional order then Turkish troops would either be gone or in very few numbers.

The coup and the illegal government fall in both Greece and Cyprus just days after the invasion. Since then the one and only side preventing constitutional order was Turkey alone.

Why should i try and stop justifying it as personally i think they had every right to intervene, however i dont think that they have every right to still being in Cyprus almost 32 years later.

So you adopt the Turkish propaganda that says that the Turkish invasion was a "peace operation"?
They had NO right to do what they did in 1974. What they had the right was one and only thing: To restore constitutional order. Nothing less and nothing more than that.

. If it had been a full scale invasion dont you think that were would be no GC's left on the island if that had been the case? Cyprus as a whole would be a Turkish island. Have you ever thought of that?

So what Turkey did in 1974 was not an invasion according to you??
6000 people dead and 200.000 ethnically cleansed is not full scale?

Slaves my arse.

Classical colonialist attitude. You exploited half the world and still you show no regret for your immoral actions.

The constitution did not fail but the people within it did. These people failed themselves and true Cypriots.

Would you accept Cyprus to write the constidution of UK?

Has "a thousand bricks " fell on your heads yet? No? Are the likely to? do you have any proof that the British did the same or is this just another mis-quote or mere speculation?

Their policies are there for everyone to see. They are trying as much as they can to help Turkey and harm Greek Cypriots.

I think you will find at the time of the Annan plan that all policitians around the world were saying that it was a plan to solve the the Cyprus problem and all nations within the UN sponsored the plan. What do you want to hear? That they all thought it was not worth the paper it was written on and wouldn't solve anything. Of course they all talked up the plan the same as politicians did with all previous attempts to solve the Cyprob. What i find ironic with the Annan plan is that PapaD and Denktash negotiated the plan, with the SG, couldnt agree on certain points then gave the SG permission to "fill in the blanks". The campaign for the "no" vote in the south was lead by the very man who helped put it together.

Most countries have clearly supported the right of Greek Cypriots to reject this plan. They didn't support that this plan should be enforced, they supported that this option should be given to the Cypriot people.

If they ask me if stuballstu has the right to suicide I will also support this as your right. It doesn't mean that I want you do suicide or that I will try to force you to do it. (or even worst tell you that you should either suicide otherwise I will kill you)

So do not confuse the majority of countries that wanted the Cypriot people to have this as an option and the small minority of countries that wanted to force this plan on us.

When Papadopoulos was elected the Annan plan was already there. Many things were not agreed and Annan "filled in the blanks" in the way that TCs wanted. This was reflected with the results of the referendum.

Cypriots should be allowed to take decisions in a democratic way about their own country and create their own constidution. Then after we do that if what we will have will be in any way worst than what you have in UK, USA or Turkey, you will have the right to blame us.

Agreed, but thats unlikely to happen until a settlement and should be part of a settlement a new constitution.

So you agree or disagree? Should the constidution be one decided democratically be Cypriots or not?

[stuballstu]

stuballstu wrote:

Did it say on your classroom walls "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk"? It didnt on mine so please dont tell me that some GC's havn't been brought up in an environment which is not discriminitory against other races.

I dont know who fed you that bullshit on rye, but our classrooms never said "A Good Turk is a Dead Turk". So please check out what you say before you say it, because I dont believe you were there and all you know is what you are told. Sad really

Andri

A GC friend told me this. When i next see him i will find out the name of the school he went to and in what year then maybe it can be verified. Fortunately i dont believe everything i am told which is not that sad. As i am not GC i did no attend school in Cyprus. I am not saying that this appeared on every school wall, however he definately said that it was on his.

Tell me then were/are GC schoolchildren brought up to hate Turks?

[Piratis]

Tell me then were/are GC schoolchildren brought up to hate Turks?

They are brought up to hate illegals, human rights violations and those that support such things.
Have you been brought up to love criminals and those that commit human right violations?

Do you expect Greek Cypriots to forget about the occupation and pretend as if nothing wrong is forced by Turkey in our country?