Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Trust will only be built up over time, with trust comes a higher level of respect

stuballstu, I am not sure with what you mean "higher level of respect" but respect for at least the basic human rights (something which is an obligation, not an option) is definitely a prerequisite to trust.

You don't need to trust somebody to respect him but you can not trust somebody that does not show to you any kind of respect. I believe what I say is very logical.

While i hear what you are saying from your post above why do you constantly refer to ethnic cleansing and 200,000 GC refugees on every post? Is it not true that TC's had this forced upon them too, firstly be EOKA and then forced partition? GC's were not the only people affected.

What is the Cyprus problem stuballstu? Isn't a big part of the Cyprus problem, the part that affects most people, the fact that 200.000 refugees are still not allowed to return to their homes and Republic of Cyprus is still occupied by Turkey?
If we don't talk about the Cyprus Problem in the Cyprus Problem forum then what are we going to talk about?

Yes, EOKA WAS a problem for TCs, just like TMT, the Ottoman rule etc was a problem for GCs. The ones that are trying to selectively use the past to excuse crimes of today are the ones that do not want a fair and just solution to the Cyprus problem and they prefer two conflicting communities in Cyprus instead of one truly united country.

[Mills Chapman]

Is it too dangerous to the self to say that my side's problems are just one half of the overall problem, nothing more or nothing less, regardless of the difference in population figures?

If there is a pie graph showing the population affected by the Cyprus problem, and people from my side comprise a slice that takes up 82% of the pie, does that mean in the corresponding pie graph showing the sum of the problems in the Cyprus Problem that the slice showing my side's problems will take up 82% of the overall Cyprus Problem pie?

If so, and if we then go ahead and solve that 82% of the Cyprus Problem, would that mean that we have solved the vast majority of the Cyprus Problem and can rest easy for awhile?

[stuballstu]

Quote:
Trust will only be built up over time, with trust comes a higher level of respect



stuballstu, I am not sure with what you mean "higher level of respect" but respect for at least the basic human rights (something which is an obligation, not an option) is definitely a prerequisite to trust.

You don't need to trust somebody to respect him but you can not trust somebody that does not show to you any kind of respect. I believe what I say is very logical.

Obviously your missing the point.

With more trust comes more respect. Is that logical??

What is the Cyprus problem stuballstu?

Do you want me to give you a lesson on it? Doesn't it depend on which book you read and who wrote it?

Yes, EOKA WAS a problem for TCs, just like TMT, the Ottoman rule etc was a problem for GCs. The ones that are trying to selectively use the past to excuse crimes of today are the ones that do not want a fair and just solution to the Cyprus problem and they prefer two conflicting communities in Cyprus instead of one truly united country.

Are you serious? This is not the first time that you have made reference to TMT and as usual go on about the Ottomans. Whilst both TMT and EOKA committed crimes against humanity you have to admit that EOKA backed by Greece did try to "ethnically cleanse" Cyprus of Turkish Cypriots on a large scale. If you look at Reuters, BBC to name a couple there are many more new agencies, they all report the same thing that Turkish troops landed in response to a Greece backed attempt at Enosis. Because that did not work how can you expect TC's to trust GC's in power particularly when your president is a well known member of EOKA. Put that in a role reversal and TC's were the majority who tried with the backing of Turkey to become part of Turkey and Greece invaded as a guarantor, which hymm book would you sing from then? Dont tell me you would be saying that Greek troops should not be here and let all the TC refugees return. People who read this forum have more inteligence than that. There are 3 sides to the Cyprus problem 1 The GC/Greek side 2 The TC and Turkish side and 3 THE TRUTH.

Even now you say you want unity and that refugees should return, however why do you only post the GC numbers of refugees and never TC's. Now can you see why most TC's view GC's as only having self interests. You may not realise this but your posts say to TC's its only GC refugees that you have any interest in and then you ask them to respect GC's human rights but you make absolutely no mention, none whatsover, of TC refugees and the suffering they have been through. You give the impression that in your world they dont exist you never mention them in your posts!!

Previously you have called me one sided, however my friend it is about time you took off your blinkers and seen the Cyprus problem from another dimension.

By the way just for the record i have many TC and GC friends. From a personal point of view i would like to see refugees of all sides given the option to return to their former homes. Is it going to happen.......? As the clock ticks the opportunity to return gets further away.

[Piratis]

Mills, is what you say related to anything that I said? Because I don't see any relation. Did I say anything about "problem percentages"? I just said some facts. Which of the facts bothered you?

If so, and if we then go ahead and solve that 82% of the Cyprus Problem, would that mean that we have solved the vast majority of the Cyprus Problem and can rest easy for awhile?

Solving the 100% is ideal. What is strange is that for same people solving the 82% is not enough, while solving just the 18% was. Isn't this an oxymoron?

[Piratis]

stuballstu, for once more you take off the mask when faced with arguments that you can not attack otherwise.

It is truly sad that you (again) revert to the past to excuse crimes of today, yet you only see the past you want to see (EOKA was bad, TMT was not so bad, Greece was bad, Turkey is angel, the Ottoman oppression is too old etc etc)

Obviously your missing the point.

With more trust comes more respect. Is that logical??

Sure. But with no respect there can be no trust to begin with. Respect is a prerequisite to trust. Isn't that logical?

Whilst both TMT and EOKA committed crimes against humanity you have to admit that EOKA backed by Greece did try to "ethnically cleanse" Cyprus of Turkish Cypriots on a large scale.

Some 100s of both TCs and GCs died during the intercommunal conflict over a period of about 10 years. How can this be "ethnic cleansing on large scale"? In comparison when the Ottomans first set their foot in Cyprus they had butchered 20,000 GCs within days in Nicosia alone, and the Turkish invasion of 1974 killed 6000 GCs again within days. So stop trying to create wrong impressions and take the events in their right dimensions.

Put that in a role reversal and TC's were the majority who tried with the backing of Turkey to become part of Turkey and Greece invaded as a guarantor, which hymm book would you sing from then?

Actually your question is not theoretical. Cyprus was part of the Ottoman empire for 3 centuries. Whenever we tried to demand our rights they were cutting our heads off. If Cyprus had 82% Turkish population there is no doubt that it would have been part of Turkey and GCs would just be part of the Greek minority of Turkey. (Kurds are even the majority in the Kurdistan region and you can see what happens to them)

Even now you say you want unity and that refugees should return, however why do you only post the GC numbers of refugees and never TC's.

I always say that all refugees should be allowed to return to their homes. I post the GC refugee numbers because these are the people that are kept apart from their properties against their will. It seems that most of the TCs that went to the occupied areas are more than satisfied with the "exchange" land they received there and would therefore prefer partition rather than returning to their own properties (which in most cases are fewer and of lesser value than the properties they were given in the occupied areas). This is what they say, not me.
Just to make it even more clear: all people should be allowed to return to their own properties.

There are 3 sides to the Cyprus problem 1 The GC/Greek side 2 The TC and Turkish side and 3 THE TRUTH.

Sure, and I guess we can substitute "3 THE TRUTH" with "3 THE stuballstu" right?

[Mills Chapman]

Isn't a big part of the Cyprus problem, the part that affects most people..

Yes, it is related. I am wondering if a part of the Cyprus Problem can be a big part (bigger than any other part) simply because it is the one that affects the most people.

If the TCs have the same amout of power in being able to shoot down a jointly proposed solution - in a joint referendum where the "yes" percentages on each side matter and not the actual number of votes that say "yes", why not try to solve the TCs' problems just as vigorously as we try to solve the GC ones? In other words, why not try to expend an equal amount of effort in solving the problems of each side, which in turn, would lead to viewing each side's problems as being equally worthy. Hypothetically speaking, there might be five million GC voters on one side and just ten TC voters on the other side, but the outcome in votes on each side will have an equal chance to destroy anyone's proposed solution. Fair or unfair, this seems to be the reality. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Oh, I just saw your comment about those people who think that solving a certain 82% is not enough and that their 18% is. Yes, it's a total oxymoron - more hypocritical than anything else. The result of the tc vote might have an equal impact in any future referendum, but not an ounce more.

This reminds me of an American movie called "The Defiant Ones," with Sidney Poitier. Two jail escapees, one black and one racist white, are handcuffed to each other but mange to escape from a prison in the Southern U.S. The two of them (the GC "yes" vote and the TC "yes" vote) have to come to grips with the ugly fact that they have to work together - despite their prejudices - if they are to get away from the police authorities forever (the Cyprus Problem). Here's the trailer: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051525/trailers

[Sotos]

Hypothetically speaking, there might be five million GC voters on one side and just ten TC voters on the other side, but the outcome in votes on each side will have an equal chance to destroy anyone's proposed solution. Fair or unfair, this seems to be the reality. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Wrong you are not but unfair it is 5 million + 4 vote for one solution and 6 people vote against it the solution is rejected. Whoare these 6 people anyways? Superman, Spiderman, Batman, Popeye the sailor man, Allah and Sotos?

[stuballstu]

Quote:
Whilst both TMT and EOKA committed crimes against humanity you have to admit that EOKA backed by Greece did try to "ethnically cleanse" Cyprus of Turkish Cypriots on a large scale.

Some 100s of both TCs and GCs died during the intercommunal conflict over a period of about 10 years. How can this be "ethnic cleansing on large scale"? In comparison when the Ottomans first set their foot in Cyprus they had butchered 20,000 GCs within days in Nicosia alone, and the Turkish invasion of 1974 killed 6000 GCs again within days. So stop trying to create wrong impressions and take the events in their right dimensions

.

so what you are saying is that because the Ottomans allegedley butchered 20000 in Nicosia there is justification in ENOSIS? You will find that i am not creating wrong impressions, the facts are that GC's wanted to be part of Greece and GC's tried to "ethnically cleanse" TC's from the Island as they didnt fit in with the ideoligy of a new "Greek" island. THAT IS A FACT but you never mention this and find it convenient to ignore as part of your arguement.

Quote:
Put that in a role reversal and TC's were the majority who tried with the backing of Turkey to become part of Turkey and Greece invaded as a guarantor, which hymm book would you sing from then?

Actually your question is not theoretical. Cyprus was part of the Ottoman empire for 3 centuries. Whenever we tried to demand our rights they were cutting our heads off. If Cyprus had 82% Turkish population there is no doubt that it would have been part of Turkey and GCs would just be part of the Greek minority of Turkey. (Kurds are even the majority in the Kurdistan region and you can see what happens to them)

3 Centuries ago times were different, there were no human rights laws. It is not fair to compare what happened 3 centuries ago to the modern day. Life is completely different. There has just been an example in the UK of a soldier who refused to go to war in WW1 or WW2. He was executed and no one batted an eye lid it was the way life was then. Another British soldier just recently refused to go to Iraq his punishement an honourable discharge. There is no way that soldier would be executed in todays times. Please stop comparing apples to pears. If Turkey wanted to it could have taken over the whole island in 1974 and the whole island would have Turkish then. You call the Turkish army butchers and that there are 200000 GC refugees. It could have been worse they may have been another 200000 dead god forbid.

Quote:
Even now you say you want unity and that refugees should return, however why do you only post the GC numbers of refugees and never TC's.

I always say that all refugees should be allowed to return to their homes. I post the GC refugee numbers because these are the people that are kept apart from their properties against their will. It seems that most of the TCs that went to the occupied areas are more than satisfied with the "exchange" land they received there and would therefore prefer partition rather than returning to their own properties (which in most cases are fewer and of lesser value than the properties they were given in the occupied areas). This is what they say, not me.
Just to make it even more clear: all people should be allowed to return to their own properties.

My point is that you always just refer to your posts as how GC's have been affected and displace and completely dis regard the fact the TC's also have been affected. You only ever quote GC figures and the most TC's get a mention in your posts is

Just to make it even more clear: all people should be allowed to return to their own properties.

yet continually mention GC's human rights.

I have a TC friend who now lives in Karavas. Him and his brother got 6 donums of land in "exchange" for his 110 donums in Paphos. You call that fair? He says he will never sell his land in the North ever, it will go to his children or the refugee who left it. Secretly he hopes that a settlement will give him more land in the North than he has now as compensation for what he left in the South and the GC whos house he stays in now will get their house back. They have no intentions of ever returning to Paphos. Tell me how much do you think his land in Paphos would be worth now? On the other side of the coin i do know that there were some TC's who got more than they left but there is very few of them, most got less.

Sure, and I guess we can substitute "3 THE TRUTH" with "3 THE stuballstu" right

?

As i said it depends which book you have read, please dont insult my intelligence or other board members. You are bordering on making an ass of yourself.

stuballstu, for once more you take off the mask when faced with arguments that you can not attack otherwise.

It is truly sad that you (again) revert to the past to excuse crimes of today, yet you only see the past you want to see (EOKA was bad, TMT was not so bad, Greece was bad, Turkey is angel, the Ottoman oppression is too old etc etc)

I dont have a mask although a few girls I have met over the years may tell you that i need one but thats a different story for a different thread

I have never said that TMT were not so bad, they are both as bad as each other in my book. There is no place in society for any form of terrorism. I never said that Greece was bad either. The facts are the Enosis was backed by Greece. I dont know if Ottoman oppression was bad or not i wasnt born then and i have never said that Turkey is an angel.

Take your blinkers off!

[Piratis]

so what you are saying is that because the Ottomans allegedley butchered 20000 in Nicosia there is justification in ENOSIS? You will find that i am not creating wrong impressions, the facts are that GC's wanted to be part of Greece and GC's tried to "ethnically cleanse" TC's from the Island as they didnt fit in with the ideoligy of a new "Greek" island. THAT IS A FACT but you never mention this and find it convenient to ignore as part of your arguement.

Who talked about enosis now?? What I am saying is that when Turks as recently as 1974 were killing Greek Cypriots by the 1000s within days, it is stupid to call "ethnic cleansing" the death of some 100s of TCs during a period of several years, especially when GCs had about the same number of victims as well during the same period.
GCs wanting enosis is one thing, and for many GCs this was the case. But there was no attempt for "ethnic cleansing" against TCs and the historical facts prove this.
Or is just wanting enosis a crime? Let me ask you something. In Turkey there is more than 20% of Kurdish minority. Does this mean that Turkish citizens as a whole (Kurdish minority included) do not have the right of self determination? The same can be said for the Turkish minority in Bulgaria, the African American minority in USA etc.

3 Centuries ago times were different, there were no human rights laws. It is not fair to compare what happened 3 centuries ago to the modern day. Life is completely different.

In the case of Turkey 3 centuries ago and today are no different. 1974 was just 32 years ago, but even today Turkey continues to ignore international law and human rights.

If Turkey wanted to it could have taken over the whole island in 1974 and the whole island would have Turkish then. You call the Turkish army butchers and that there are 200000 GC refugees. It could have been worse they may have been another 200000 dead god forbid.

Oh I see. So the GCs are evil because they committed some crimes against TCs, but the Turks who have committed 100 times more crimes against GCs are very nice because they could have committed much more crimes. So GCs deserve a punishment, but Turks deserve to be thanked for not committing even more crimes.

My point is that you always just refer to your posts as how GC's have been affected and displace and completely dis regard the fact the TC's also have been affected.

I always talk about a solution were everybody (TCs and GCs) would receive the 100% of their rights back. On the other hand some others insist that while TCs should get all their rights back, GCs should not. These are racist double standards.

I have a TC friend who now lives in Karavas. Him and his brother got 6 donums of land in "exchange" for his 110 donums in Paphos. You call that fair?

Never. What I call fair is if everybody gets his own land back. What do you call fair?

On the other side of the coin i do know that there were some TC's who got more than they left but there is very few of them, most got less.

It is the opposite. Most got more. Do not forget that the 18% of TCs controll 37% of the land. Where did they gave the rest of the land if most TCs got less?
If most TCs got less then the total land of all TCs in occupied areas would be less than 18%. So who got the 20% of land? The settlers? Don't the TCs argue that the settlers are not the majority in the occupied areas? Or settlers are in fact the majority?

Sure, and I guess we can substitute "3 THE TRUTH" with "3 THE stuballstu" right ?

As i said it depends which book you have read, please dont insult my intelligence or other board members. You are bordering on making an ass of yourself.

OK mr. THE TRUTH.

I have never said that TMT were not so bad

You clearly said that TMT was not as bad as EOKA. I am glad that you now changed your mind.

I never said that Greece was bad either. The facts are the Enosis was backed by Greece.

And partition was planed, backed and implemented by Turkey.

I dont know if Ottoman oppression was bad or not i wasnt born then

And in 1955 you were born and a witness to the actions of EOKA I guess, right?

and i have never said that Turkey is an angel

You never said anything against turkey, unlike your accusations against GCs and Greece. So why they are not angels? Or you don't want to talk about that and talk about the "evil" GCs instead?

Take your blinkers off!

Ok "THE TRUTH" whatever you say.

[PEACE]

Who knows. What we know already is that GCs are 82%. If you are not willing to accept 18% because at a future time you might be more than 18% then why do you expect GCs to accept less than 82% when they are already 82%? An 82% -18% land split is only fair.

I meant for both sides it is valid.Yes,GCs won't stay today's number too. So a solution that its base is population to land can't be functional.

Many times the official figures have been posted in this forum that show that TC land ownership was actually even less than 18%. In Cyprus such records were kept very precisely since the British rule. Now some people are trying without any basis to convince us that TCs were the rich land lords of Cyprus.

Which offical figures? Goverment posts offical figures to this forum?

Again I repeat that what you called "Piratis Plan" was just one example when I was answering a question. I didn't say it should be like this. It could be in a different way. If you have a better way of how we can achieve federation (that you want) without violating our human rights (you have no right to ask for such thing) then tell us.

The best solution base is Annan Plan.One of the main problem in Cyprus problem is property problem and this should be solved like in Annan Plan.
Some will return and others won't and will get compensation.This is NOT a violation of your human rights.You'll get its price! If you can't return and can't get its price than its a violation.When goverment does nationalization your human rights are violated? Other solutions are imaginary and are in conflict of EU's principles.

There is no piratis plan (not a recent one at least). What there is are some principles:
- human rights for all
- Democracy
- no racist discriminations

Most probably there won't be a seperate state.May be there can be 3 zones.TC state,GC state and a mixed state at the centre.