Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Bakala, why do you copy/paste the exact same things in several threads. Both of your above posts had been posted before:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/post-79200.html#79200
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/post-79228.html#79228

I will not waste my time to repeat my answers to you.

Just one comment that I didn't made before on the following:

Turkey waits at the door of Europe to be accepted as a partner, there are some political parties in Turkey that call for Turkey to look to the east for friendship and alliance, God help Europe if they ever get in power, because then we could have the most extreme face of Islam at the back door of Europe and this, would never be acceptable to either Europe or America.

I would say God help Turkey in case that happens. Turkey is a torn nation. It doesn't belong to the east and it doesn't belong to the west either. Kurdistan sits right on top of the oil rich areas and the Americans seem that they have developed good relationship with the Kurds during the Iraq war.
Today Turkey is kept powerful because this is what serves the interests of the USA. If Turkey turns islamist and to the east then not even God will be able to help Turkey. I predict her brake up very quickly after such event. In fact this just shows how unstable and fragile Turkey is.

Piratis, how do you plan to achieve a Turkish Cypriot majority in this area? Do you mean that some Greek Cypriots will not be allowed to return in order to create this area of TC majority?

The exact way should be discussed in the give-take (without blackmails) that will be contacted after the occupation ends.

My idea is the following:

Cyprus is separated into 2 states, in northern state of 18% and one southern state of 82% of land.
TCs will all be given the change to live in the northern state. Even if all GC refugees return to this northern state the TCs will still be the great majority there. As long as the TCs feel that they need to be separated from GCs most of them will choose to live in the northern state and the northern state will remain TC controlled.

In this way there is a geographical separation like it exists in all other federations of the world, without a racial separation that exist nowhere (apartheid is over even in south Africa). But since the TCs will be the great majority in the northern state then this state will be controlled by TCs.

[tcklim]

Isn't that slightly hypocritical given all your past arguments? So you support the ethnic cleansing and loss of property for some but not for all? Who decides?

[Piratis]

Isn't that slightly hypocritical given all your past arguments? So you support the ethnic cleansing and loss of property for some but not for all? Who decides?

?????? Where did you see me supporting ethnic cleansing and loss of property? What I said is not what I dream of, but a compromise to try to make what TCs want (separate state) without gross human rights violations. Compromise means to accept less than the ideal and I am more than willing to do so as long as universally accepted principles such as human rights and democracy are not thrown out of the window.

Say tomorrow in the USA all African Americans are allowed (which they are) to move to one not so large sate, and they are also helped to do so if they wish (subsidies etc). Then this not so big state will have an African American majority, and therefore the African Americans can elect an African American Governor and control the state.

Of course this will not happen in the USA first because African Americans do not wish to live separately, and second because the USA government would not help them to do so even if they wanted. But this can happen in Cyprus if this is what the TCs want.

As I said this is just one example. Instead of attacking me (again) why don't you suggest other ways that the TC concerns can be met as much as possible without violating human and democratic rights? Or avoiding human rights violations in the solution of the Cyprus problem is not what you wish?

[tcklim]

How do you propose that TC's get an 18% of land as state... where would you accomodate them all without violating the rights of GCs who have property there? Doesn't work.... I support unification and the right of return - as much as possible - for all refugees. But that will take a very long time and needs trust-building measures, such as lets say the joint governance of Famagusta for a while, interommunal events and dialogue etc. which would eventually, down the road, lead to unification.

I just don't believe that hurling insults at the TC's and calling them ethnic cleansers and what-not leads to that path.

[sadik]

The exact way should be discussed in the give-take (without blackmails) that will be contacted after the occupation ends.

My idea is the following:

Cyprus is separated into 2 states, in northern state of 18% and one southern state of 82% of land.
TCs will all be given the change to live in the northern state. Even if all GC refugees return to this northern state the TCs will still be the great majority there. As long as the TCs feel that they need to be separated from GCs most of them will choose to live in the northern state and the northern state will remain TC controlled.

In this way there is a geographical separation like it exists in all other federations of the world, without a racial separation that exist nowhere (apartheid is over even in south Africa). But since the TCs will be the great majority in the northern state then this state will be controlled by TCs.

But what property do you propose that Turkish Cypriots will live on ?

[Piratis]

How do you propose that TC's get an 18% of land as state... where would you accommodate them all without violating the rights of GCs who have property there? Doesn't work.... I support unification and the right of return - as much as possible - for all refugees.

Well Tcklim, I am still waiting for a better solution from you. Tell me of a better way that TCs can have their separate state without violation of human rights of others.

Talks and events etc can help but this are not the solution. There are two things: 1) What is the final aim (the solution). 2) How we get there.
I am talking about 1) you are talking about 2). But don't you think we have to agree on the aim before we find ways of achieving it?

And what exactly means ".... I support unification and the right of return - as much as possible"? Do you also support the demand of TCs for a separate state as much as this would be possible? Or you support that demand to its 100%? I don't disagree with you that the return of the 100% of refugees might not be possible. I am just pointing out that you continue on your one sided approach on this matter.

I just don't believe that hurling insults at the TC's and calling them ethnic cleansers and what-not leads to that path.

Ethnic cleansers are the Turkish army. Beyond that there are the ethnic cleansing supporters. For me supporting such criminal acts can not be excused no matter if you are TC, GC or foreigner.

But what property do you propose that Turkish Cypriots will live on ?

TCs can be subsidized to buy Greek Cypriot property (from GCs that voluntarily would want to sell, and there will be many) and the rest might exchange the property they have elsewhere with state land in their state.

Just to make it clear I am not expecting this to happen in one day. Transitional periods will exist.

[tcklim]

Wellwe're getting clearer now.... where is my one-sided approach? I've stated time and time again for UNIFICATION, you have continuously stated that any form of partition justifies the Turkish occupation ad legitimizes human rights and bla bla.... but you are stating here that you actually support partition.

Personally, I would like to see a return to the 1960's constituion without any territorial boundaries. Reaching this solution however, when considering the concerns, will not be possible for a very very long time. If we negate the borders and form an agreement whereby TC's and GC's have equal rights and opportunities on both side sof the divide, with the return of refugees from both sides being facilitated by the government on a case-by-case basis, and if problems occur in specific situations (e.g. Larnaca airport is not about to be returned to TC ownership is it?) then alternate forms of compensation can be decided by an independant body consisting of both TCs and GCs.

Eventually, when the two people actually trust each other, we can unite the government and centralize the power more, as TC's will further integrate into the predominantly GC government, lessening the "state" power if you will, and hopefully one day abolishing it for good.

Ok well I just pulled that out off the top of my head as one possibility, of course, it's way too simplistic, but you get the gist of it.

Measures WILL provide a solution in the long-run, yelling at the Turks and telling them to f'off hasn't seemed to work thus far, and well I'm sure it won't and could lead the island down a very dangerous path.

How about the joint governance of Famagusta (as has been proposed) for a start, that would be a MAJOR advance i think.

[PEACE]

The 1960 constitution was in fact vary favorable to the TCs. Do you know many 18% communities that have their language as an official language of the state? Do you know any other small community like TCs that would be given so many veto powers? The 18% TCs according to the 1960 constitution will also have 30% of the governmental positions etc.

So in fact the 1960 constitution written by the British (not Greek Cypriots) is very favorable to the TCs. Still you insist on illegalities and blackmails to force us to accept something that it is even more to your benefit and to our loss.

Yes, 1960 Constitution seems ok but we saw that its not functional.You tried to change it because it didn't satisfied you.Also in six subjects problems occured between Tcs and Gcs.These raised the tension and at the end 21 December 1963 guns exploded.Now you say 1960 Constitution is Ok for me it may be Ok but is it functional too? Past events showed that its not !

After the end of the occupation and the return to the 1960 constitution were both TCs and GCs would get the 100% of what they legally should have, then we could sit and discuss on how we can improve this constitution not by one side forcing the other to accept something, but by making changes that will be better for both. This is what WIN-WIN means.

This is not a solution but its coming to an agreement about returning to 1960 Constitutional structure.After that point i don't beleive you will sit to discuss anything with us.You will say "Well,we made a solution so no need to discuss.When we'll say "Let's discuss" you will say "Discuss what?"...



Also returning back to 1960 Constitution is mostly impossible.You made many changes and agreements.Republic of Cyprus changed so much that can not be return to its old bi-communal structure.If we don't want any agreement that Republic Of Cyprus did while we are not included what will happen? We'll cancel all? If we want to veto some of the laws you accepted in 1963-... period where we are not included? Are you beleiving that Turkey has economical power to pay all damages she caused and dou you beleive you have money to pay all damages you caused? I don't think so...Think returning to old sturucture after these...

[andri_cy]

[
I hear you, but don't be so sad. For decades the 2 sides didn't even speak! Now we got the border down, we connecting, understanding (well, maybe not always, but better we fight on this forum than out on the streets!) and it's only a matter of time before it's love and not hate that spreads. We Cypriots can't avoid each other, on the island, on this Forum, in the big wide world. There's enough goodness to go around and drown out all the negativity!

I so agree with you. I think that with time everything will be behind us. We both have work to do but we have to remember both sides have responsibilities

[bakala]

Hey all you moderate guys

If your still there how about ideas for a Cyprus peace protest
North and south to organise it

Start with a competition for T shirt slogans
Like

Peace in Cyprus
Or Cyprus in pieces

I am sure we would get lots of good ideas for slogans from the guys on the board

Don’t bother Argios or Piratis we already know yours

A hundred people from each side would be a good start
Pass the border and meet in no mans land half way to the next border post

Its international territory no one could touch us
Set up tables and chairs
Invite the press to drive through the borders and take photos
Genuine peace protestors are usually handled with kid gloves by most governments provided there is no provocative behaviour.

start a no mans land carnival
you never know all the people passing through might join in .





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