tcklim
i think you are very fair mate and open minded
i will look forward to reading more of your opinions when you have read more about it
and just for you
i am currently living in the UK
i plan on moving to the island in April and i havent decided yet what sort of land i will buy
according to some on this board any land i buy will be stolen property so i cant win
does this make me a thieving scumbag now or a potential thieving scumbag ?
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Cyprus invasion.
by Piratis » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:57 am
tcklim, you came here presenting yourself as Mr. KnowItall without doing your homework. Then you started attacking me first, remember? So when you attack me expect a respond of the same kind.
Why don't you go to New York wearing a Bin Laden T-shirt, burning USA flags and telling New Yorkers that they deserved what happened to them on 9/11? Then maybe you will learn a couple of more things about human nature.
It is amazing on how provocative and disrespectful some people can be for our basic human rights and the sovereignty of our country and then are surprised of our reaction. Do you think that if you were justifying the illegal occupation of any country (e.g. France or Poland etc during WWII) that the citizens of that country would love you? Get serious please. What you receive from us is what you gave to us: total disrespect.
I am glad that now you started reading a bit. It would have been better if you did this before you came in here with your one sided approach. Better late than never though.
One more example of bakala trying to excuse the crime he has already decided to commit.
No my friend there is no stolen property sold to foreigners in the free areas, you can find TC owned (pre 1974) property in the occupied areas, and you also have the rest of the world with very nice properties to choose from (Spain, France, Florida, Greece, Turkey, Norway etc). Only a very tiny minority of immoral criminals are those that do not care to commit a crime as long as they pay less and they go ahead and buy stolen property in the occupied areas.
Why don't you go to New York wearing a Bin Laden T-shirt, burning USA flags and telling New Yorkers that they deserved what happened to them on 9/11? Then maybe you will learn a couple of more things about human nature.
It is amazing on how provocative and disrespectful some people can be for our basic human rights and the sovereignty of our country and then are surprised of our reaction. Do you think that if you were justifying the illegal occupation of any country (e.g. France or Poland etc during WWII) that the citizens of that country would love you? Get serious please. What you receive from us is what you gave to us: total disrespect.
I am glad that now you started reading a bit. It would have been better if you did this before you came in here with your one sided approach. Better late than never though.
i plan on moving to the island in April and i havent decided yet what sort of land i will buy
according to some on this board any land i buy will be stolen property so i cant win
does this make me a thieving scumbag now or a potential thieving scumbag ?
One more example of bakala trying to excuse the crime he has already decided to commit.
No my friend there is no stolen property sold to foreigners in the free areas, you can find TC owned (pre 1974) property in the occupied areas, and you also have the rest of the world with very nice properties to choose from (Spain, France, Florida, Greece, Turkey, Norway etc). Only a very tiny minority of immoral criminals are those that do not care to commit a crime as long as they pay less and they go ahead and buy stolen property in the occupied areas.
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Piratis - Moderator
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by andri_cy » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:15 am
theresa wrote:and why is Turkish pre 74 land many many times more expensive? cos its safe by any chance? I think there will be a great many hearts broken over these unstoppable land sales and not just Cypriots' either!
Tess
Pre 74 TC land in the north is legal to sell and buy. If the land was Tc pre 74 no one can deny that is their land and they have the actual RoC titles for it. But because it is legal to buy and sell it is probably more expensive. I also think that a lot of hearts are going to be broken and it will involve people buying the GC land illegally too. They dont research before they buy and if some kind of agreement is reached, they will either lose what they bought or forced to pay additional amounts for restitution to the legal owners. Its a bad deall all around for everyone but the "real estate agents".
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by bakala » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:05 am
Textbook tactics for coastal occupation well known all over the world
and the reason why turky occupy a third of the island
The events prior to 1974 drove turkey to the point where they had no other option than to land forces,
An Air defensive and defensive umbrella would be instigated to maintain support for forward troops and the gathering of intelligence on enemy movements
Once the forces landed a breakout from the beachhead was essential from a strategic point of view, Unless the heights above Kyrenia were occupied greek artillery could have taken up position and slaughtered the Turkish troops occupying the coastal landing areas. Once the heights were occupied communications stations would be set up, this is essential to coordinate the second phase
Second Phase
Once landed the breakout and quickly moving south into defensible positions was essential and would have had a timetable set out by the Turkish FOC.
The occupation of a working airfield was also needed for quick re supply of essential forward equipment and rapid extraction of casualties,
A paratroops force would be inserted to occupy the nearest airfield to the landing areas
Third Phase
An offensive corridor would now be forced to the nearest Airfield to reinforce the paratroopers.
Second wave landing troops would move through the second phase defensive positions and set up more foreword defensive positions
Conversion of the second phase defensible positions into supply areas and field hospitals would now complete phase three.
The first part of the landings would be complete with a forward defensive area sending out offensive patrols in depth and the supply and hospital areas secured to the rear, the corridor to the Airfield would have been widened as much as defensively possible, so the airfield would be out of range of the best artillery the enemy had.
A supply corridor would be set up to the Airfield and the forward Air Umbrella would be run from the forward airfield
The last Phase of the operation would have been to infiltrate or pass enemy strong points isolating them for follow up troops, the Forward line of assault troops would have had reach predetermined targets which would have taken control of essential roads to maintain mobility and supply, The news of the attacks on the enclaves would now have made the Turks review tactics to encompass the enclaves and put out a protective screen around them
All this would have certainly led the Turkish Army of 40.000 men to occupy one third of the island.
This isn’t clever, it is standard old fashioned deployment technique for coastal landings and has worked all over the world. It worked in Normandy on a much bigger scale
Now the Turks have occupied one third of the island the next move (which never happened) would have been to move offensive air strikes on the supply ports in the south and wreck communications, a defensive air umbrella would have patrolled out into the med half way to Rhodes attacking any supply ships at sea.
The ground troops would have simply leapfrogged through their own positions down to the southern port areas; once they were occupied it was checkmate. the whole island would have been a Turkish satellite state.
Of course this scenario didn’t happen
The Turks despite appeals refused to withdraw and hand over the island to the very people who sought to wipe out the Turkish Cypriots,
As the Turks saw it the Government that tried and failed to take over the island and kill all the turkish Cypriots ,was still in power, Makarios had used the creeping attrition approach, The military coup the more direct machine gun approach, but the aim of both was the same. Enosis, even if all the Turkish Cypriots had to die or be thrown off the island to achieve it.
The south hasn’t had a government the Turks could trust from 1960 to the present day
That’s why there is still a Cyprus problem
The reason why the Turks hold the land they do now, is because they couldn’t hold less without loosing it all
...
.
and the reason why turky occupy a third of the island
The events prior to 1974 drove turkey to the point where they had no other option than to land forces,
An Air defensive and defensive umbrella would be instigated to maintain support for forward troops and the gathering of intelligence on enemy movements
Once the forces landed a breakout from the beachhead was essential from a strategic point of view, Unless the heights above Kyrenia were occupied greek artillery could have taken up position and slaughtered the Turkish troops occupying the coastal landing areas. Once the heights were occupied communications stations would be set up, this is essential to coordinate the second phase
Second Phase
Once landed the breakout and quickly moving south into defensible positions was essential and would have had a timetable set out by the Turkish FOC.
The occupation of a working airfield was also needed for quick re supply of essential forward equipment and rapid extraction of casualties,
A paratroops force would be inserted to occupy the nearest airfield to the landing areas
Third Phase
An offensive corridor would now be forced to the nearest Airfield to reinforce the paratroopers.
Second wave landing troops would move through the second phase defensive positions and set up more foreword defensive positions
Conversion of the second phase defensible positions into supply areas and field hospitals would now complete phase three.
The first part of the landings would be complete with a forward defensive area sending out offensive patrols in depth and the supply and hospital areas secured to the rear, the corridor to the Airfield would have been widened as much as defensively possible, so the airfield would be out of range of the best artillery the enemy had.
A supply corridor would be set up to the Airfield and the forward Air Umbrella would be run from the forward airfield
The last Phase of the operation would have been to infiltrate or pass enemy strong points isolating them for follow up troops, the Forward line of assault troops would have had reach predetermined targets which would have taken control of essential roads to maintain mobility and supply, The news of the attacks on the enclaves would now have made the Turks review tactics to encompass the enclaves and put out a protective screen around them
All this would have certainly led the Turkish Army of 40.000 men to occupy one third of the island.
This isn’t clever, it is standard old fashioned deployment technique for coastal landings and has worked all over the world. It worked in Normandy on a much bigger scale
Now the Turks have occupied one third of the island the next move (which never happened) would have been to move offensive air strikes on the supply ports in the south and wreck communications, a defensive air umbrella would have patrolled out into the med half way to Rhodes attacking any supply ships at sea.
The ground troops would have simply leapfrogged through their own positions down to the southern port areas; once they were occupied it was checkmate. the whole island would have been a Turkish satellite state.
Of course this scenario didn’t happen
The Turks despite appeals refused to withdraw and hand over the island to the very people who sought to wipe out the Turkish Cypriots,
As the Turks saw it the Government that tried and failed to take over the island and kill all the turkish Cypriots ,was still in power, Makarios had used the creeping attrition approach, The military coup the more direct machine gun approach, but the aim of both was the same. Enosis, even if all the Turkish Cypriots had to die or be thrown off the island to achieve it.
The south hasn’t had a government the Turks could trust from 1960 to the present day
That’s why there is still a Cyprus problem
The reason why the Turks hold the land they do now, is because they couldn’t hold less without loosing it all
...
.
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bakala - Contributor
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by tcklim » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:03 pm
Piratis wrote:tcklim, you came here presenting yourself as Mr. KnowItall without doing your homework. Then you started attacking me first, remember? So when you attack me expect a respond of the same kind.
Why don't you go to New York wearing a Bin Laden T-shirt, burning USA flags and telling New Yorkers that they deserved what happened to them on 9/11? Then maybe you will learn a couple of more things about human nature.
It is amazing on how provocative and disrespectful some people can be for our basic human rights and the sovereignty of our country and then are surprised of our reaction. Do you think that if you were justifying the illegal occupation of any country (e.g. France or Poland etc during WWII) that the citizens of that country would love you? Get serious please. What you receive from us is what you gave to us: total disrespect.
I am glad that now you started reading a bit. It would have been better if you did this before you came in here with your one sided approach. Better late than never though.
Well that's just the thing Piratis, with such a tempermant you can't reach a solution. It's another post illustrating that you are not comprehending my posts at all, but reading them in a way and interpreting them so that you find them insulting just because you are under the illusion that the world is out to get you.
As I have stated time and time again I am for unification, not partition. All I said was that I understand the TC perspective. This is no crime and if you see this as disrespect to you, then obviously, there can be no solution cos it demonstrates that a solution is one where only what you desire is implemented with total disregard to TC concerns.
My reading the Cyprus-Conflict website has not changed my views in the slightest. I still believe the TC's had justified concerns and there were crimes committed by both sides. Nothing has changed my views, in fact the website only reinforced them so far.
To be honest, I don't perceive crimes committed in the B.C eras to be of any relevance whatsoever. I do not hate Germans because of their Nazi past. Do you? Ok i know that's not BC eras but still....
While I do not condone and am strictly against the selling of property owned by GC's in the North, I still do not fling insults and accusations at random members and form conclusions based on nothing. This board is meant to be civilized and you're meant to ensure that it is, not spark furor.
pc
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tcklim - Member
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by bakala » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:49 pm
.
The island of Cyprus has a strategic value, when the Suez canal was built it became even more of a strategic asset as its location virtually controls the western approach to the canal.
Control of the island is more important to Greece than to turkey because turkey has a certain amount of control of Suez because of its southern coast proximity to the canal.
Greece on the other hand has virtually no strategic control without Cyprus because its 500 miles further away.
Outside Greece and Turkey the rest of the world would rather have the island divided than either Turkey or Greece having total control.
An independent Cypriot EEC member island with a NATO member having friendly bases there would be acceptable. but its unobtainable while the ethnic divisions remain.
The best option for Europe would be a federation of Turkish and Greek states ruling the island with both being part of the EEC, that way the EEC would have in effect some control of the island and the approaches to the canal
Without doubt the Turks now perceive that they hold the strongest cards in the deck. World opinion sees that every effort to reunite the island has met opposition.
Once the TRNC is recognised Turkey will begin a phased withdrawal of its forces.
It may leave a much smaller observation and police force and maybe one military base to hold the north as a future asset until the TRNC becomes a member state of the EEC with Turkey. Then it will no longer need any forces in the north because the TRNC will have the protection of the EEC protocol that states that no member of the EEC can take offensive action against another member state and remain within the EEC,
The land issue that seems to cause so much trouble will be settled with some sort of compensation scheme, The people who declare today that they cannot bear to be away from the land of their ancestors, that land to them is invaluable and irreplaceable, above price and so on, will soon be swayed by the wad of money they get offered for the ancestral land. They will haggle for more money, but eventually, today’s greed will outweigh yesterdays imagined love of the ancestral land they have never seen.
Once the wad of money is spent they will declare that they were forced to sell their land against their will, and no doubt it will take a generation or two to pass away.
The people of the TRNC are content to live outside the ROC why should they place themselves under the control of a government that hates them they have no wish to have any control over the south, as far as they are concerned the Greeks can have it
The future for Cyprus is a divided island, Those who vehemently demand a united Cyprus from the South, need a united Cyprus to start the process all over again where Enosis will be the underlying future plan, Greece already has control of half the island but still wants it all,
Turkey on the other hand will refuse to allow a situation where any of the control they have now is handed over to Greece.
The ROC could now declare enosis with Greece who is to stop them? a vote in the south would probably be overwhelmingly in favour of it, Who could oppose it, there are no Turkish Cypriots in power in the ROC government. The reason they don’t is the TRNC would immediately be allied to Turkey and recognition would follow as the TRNC became officially a part of Turkey,
any future chance for greece to control all the island would be gone and the island would be permanently divided, this would be unofficialy acceptable to Europe but unacceptable to Greece.
The only hope for a united Cyprus is the time it will take for two federated states to bleed into each other until the divide disappears but this could take generations
..
The island of Cyprus has a strategic value, when the Suez canal was built it became even more of a strategic asset as its location virtually controls the western approach to the canal.
Control of the island is more important to Greece than to turkey because turkey has a certain amount of control of Suez because of its southern coast proximity to the canal.
Greece on the other hand has virtually no strategic control without Cyprus because its 500 miles further away.
Outside Greece and Turkey the rest of the world would rather have the island divided than either Turkey or Greece having total control.
An independent Cypriot EEC member island with a NATO member having friendly bases there would be acceptable. but its unobtainable while the ethnic divisions remain.
The best option for Europe would be a federation of Turkish and Greek states ruling the island with both being part of the EEC, that way the EEC would have in effect some control of the island and the approaches to the canal
Without doubt the Turks now perceive that they hold the strongest cards in the deck. World opinion sees that every effort to reunite the island has met opposition.
Once the TRNC is recognised Turkey will begin a phased withdrawal of its forces.
It may leave a much smaller observation and police force and maybe one military base to hold the north as a future asset until the TRNC becomes a member state of the EEC with Turkey. Then it will no longer need any forces in the north because the TRNC will have the protection of the EEC protocol that states that no member of the EEC can take offensive action against another member state and remain within the EEC,
The land issue that seems to cause so much trouble will be settled with some sort of compensation scheme, The people who declare today that they cannot bear to be away from the land of their ancestors, that land to them is invaluable and irreplaceable, above price and so on, will soon be swayed by the wad of money they get offered for the ancestral land. They will haggle for more money, but eventually, today’s greed will outweigh yesterdays imagined love of the ancestral land they have never seen.
Once the wad of money is spent they will declare that they were forced to sell their land against their will, and no doubt it will take a generation or two to pass away.
The people of the TRNC are content to live outside the ROC why should they place themselves under the control of a government that hates them they have no wish to have any control over the south, as far as they are concerned the Greeks can have it
The future for Cyprus is a divided island, Those who vehemently demand a united Cyprus from the South, need a united Cyprus to start the process all over again where Enosis will be the underlying future plan, Greece already has control of half the island but still wants it all,
Turkey on the other hand will refuse to allow a situation where any of the control they have now is handed over to Greece.
The ROC could now declare enosis with Greece who is to stop them? a vote in the south would probably be overwhelmingly in favour of it, Who could oppose it, there are no Turkish Cypriots in power in the ROC government. The reason they don’t is the TRNC would immediately be allied to Turkey and recognition would follow as the TRNC became officially a part of Turkey,
any future chance for greece to control all the island would be gone and the island would be permanently divided, this would be unofficialy acceptable to Europe but unacceptable to Greece.
The only hope for a united Cyprus is the time it will take for two federated states to bleed into each other until the divide disappears but this could take generations
..
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bakala - Contributor
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by Piratis » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:00 pm
tcklim, you had dedicated most part of the post in which I replied in attacking me personally and nothing more. And you continue to do so. Yet, while for you it is OK to attack the people that all they ask for is respect for their human and democratic rights, at the same time you defend people like bakala and the other criminals that either "bought" or made it clear that they will "buy" property stolen from Greek Cypriots.
What is your problem with people that demand their human rights and democracy tcklim?
So what you are saying is that only I desire human rights and democracy, while these universally accepted principles are incompatible with the concerns of the TCs?? Why should TCs desire something different than human rights and democracy for all? How asking for such things is "disregard to TC concerns"?
All I said is that any concerns should be addressed within the framework of human rights and democracy for all. Or you believe that any concerns should overwrite the basic human rights of others?
"Oh, I have a concern that some car will step over my cat. Solution: Jail all drivers so no cars will move in the street" - this is how what you tell us sounds.
Yes, of course the TC and GC concerns should be considered. But these concerns can not be used as an excuse to overwrite human and democratic rights of others.
Therefore I repeat: The solution should respect the democratic and human rights of all Cypriots without any kind of racist discrimination. Why should these statement infuriate you dear tcklim, while at the same time you are perfectly calm with the postings of people like bakala?
1974 is B.C? 2006 is BC? Today that we are still refused at gun point our human rights is BC?
Or all that matters is the tiny part of history that GCs had committed crimes (along with TCs) and everything before that is too old and everything after that is excused?
When you take such an one sided approach to excuse crimes that are committed against people today you expect to be considered as a moderate? Moderate people do not excuse crimes and human rights violations my friend.
What is your problem with people that demand their human rights and democracy tcklim?
This is no crime and if you see this as disrespect to you, then obviously, there can be no solution cos it demonstrates that a solution is one where only what you desire is implemented with total disregard to TC concerns.
So what you are saying is that only I desire human rights and democracy, while these universally accepted principles are incompatible with the concerns of the TCs?? Why should TCs desire something different than human rights and democracy for all? How asking for such things is "disregard to TC concerns"?
All I said is that any concerns should be addressed within the framework of human rights and democracy for all. Or you believe that any concerns should overwrite the basic human rights of others?
"Oh, I have a concern that some car will step over my cat. Solution: Jail all drivers so no cars will move in the street" - this is how what you tell us sounds.
Yes, of course the TC and GC concerns should be considered. But these concerns can not be used as an excuse to overwrite human and democratic rights of others.
Therefore I repeat: The solution should respect the democratic and human rights of all Cypriots without any kind of racist discrimination. Why should these statement infuriate you dear tcklim, while at the same time you are perfectly calm with the postings of people like bakala?
To be honest, I don't perceive crimes committed in the B.C eras to be of any relevance whatsoever. I do not hate Germans because of their Nazi past. Do you? Ok i know that's not BC eras but still....
1974 is B.C? 2006 is BC? Today that we are still refused at gun point our human rights is BC?
Or all that matters is the tiny part of history that GCs had committed crimes (along with TCs) and everything before that is too old and everything after that is excused?
When you take such an one sided approach to excuse crimes that are committed against people today you expect to be considered as a moderate? Moderate people do not excuse crimes and human rights violations my friend.
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Piratis - Moderator
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by bakala » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:06 pm
erm
Piratis
BC isint today its BC coz its before Christ thats like 2006 years ago
as i understand it tcklim means that anything prior to 1960 isnt relevent to the cyprus problem today and i agree with tcklim
Todays problems started from 1960
Piratis
BC isint today its BC coz its before Christ thats like 2006 years ago
as i understand it tcklim means that anything prior to 1960 isnt relevent to the cyprus problem today and i agree with tcklim
Todays problems started from 1960
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