"a population that has roots on a particular piece of land stretching back 3,500 years??"
every new generation has its own rights just because there was your ancestors here 3500 years ago means nothing. if you say it does than when americans leave america to american indians we would agree to leave the whole island to you.
or if you insist on the rule of majority then we would only accept the rule of chinese in the whole world
Non recognition of TRNC is Illegal and impact on tourism
20 posts
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by bakala » Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:51 am
It is a fact that all Turkish Cypriots were systematically removed from places of influence in the government structure prior to 74
They had no representation in government.
All Turkish Cypriots were removed from the police force prior to 74
All Turkish Cypriots were removed from the Judiciary
All these positions were guaranteed by the 1960 agreement for the then Turkish Cypriot minority
These were conditions of accepting independence from the then governing power on Cyprus which happened to be Britain, Greece signed the agreement as a guarantor power, Greece pledged it would uphold the agreement by signing it. This was to strictly protect the independence for Cyprus for all time.
Your claim that the Turkish Cypriots preferred to live in ghettoes is as ludicrous as claiming the Jews wanted to go into the Warsaw ghetto
Its unbelievable that you could argue such an outrageous claim that Turkish Cypriots wanted to leave their farms that they had inhabited for generations to live in enclaves cut off from each other and the outside world. Those that did enter the enclaves indeed had a choice, stay in their burning farms or seek refuge,
The vast majority of Greek Cypriots killed pre 74 were those Greek Cypriots opposed to enosis and were killed by Greek Cypriot militia and greek Cypriot police trying to force enosis on an unwilling population.
Enosis was always on the agenda as far as Greece was concerned ever since independence in 1960 and it was always the aim to annex the island at the first opportunity, The turkish Cypriot populating and large portion ( not majority ) of the greek Cypriot population were opposed to enosis, very few of those that opposed enosis were “ convinced “ to stop opposing it or didn’t survive to be heard.
Any Greek Cypriot found hiding or aiding Turkish Cypriot refugees paid the ultimate penalty for their humanity,
It was a despotic government in force and as such didn’t have any right to govern,
The people had a right and a duty to overthrow such government and replace it with a better one, that’s exactly what the Turkish Cypriots did with the assistance of their big brothers.
By the way you were the one claiming historical presence as a claim for a present claim on the land not me, and no doubt there were plant species on Cyprus that lay prior claim to any human inhabitation. But let’s not get silly.
My own claim is that possession is 99% of the law and as such the Turkish Cypriot population has best claim at present,
...
They had no representation in government.
All Turkish Cypriots were removed from the police force prior to 74
All Turkish Cypriots were removed from the Judiciary
All these positions were guaranteed by the 1960 agreement for the then Turkish Cypriot minority
These were conditions of accepting independence from the then governing power on Cyprus which happened to be Britain, Greece signed the agreement as a guarantor power, Greece pledged it would uphold the agreement by signing it. This was to strictly protect the independence for Cyprus for all time.
Your claim that the Turkish Cypriots preferred to live in ghettoes is as ludicrous as claiming the Jews wanted to go into the Warsaw ghetto
Its unbelievable that you could argue such an outrageous claim that Turkish Cypriots wanted to leave their farms that they had inhabited for generations to live in enclaves cut off from each other and the outside world. Those that did enter the enclaves indeed had a choice, stay in their burning farms or seek refuge,
The vast majority of Greek Cypriots killed pre 74 were those Greek Cypriots opposed to enosis and were killed by Greek Cypriot militia and greek Cypriot police trying to force enosis on an unwilling population.
Enosis was always on the agenda as far as Greece was concerned ever since independence in 1960 and it was always the aim to annex the island at the first opportunity, The turkish Cypriot populating and large portion ( not majority ) of the greek Cypriot population were opposed to enosis, very few of those that opposed enosis were “ convinced “ to stop opposing it or didn’t survive to be heard.
Any Greek Cypriot found hiding or aiding Turkish Cypriot refugees paid the ultimate penalty for their humanity,
It was a despotic government in force and as such didn’t have any right to govern,
The people had a right and a duty to overthrow such government and replace it with a better one, that’s exactly what the Turkish Cypriots did with the assistance of their big brothers.
By the way you were the one claiming historical presence as a claim for a present claim on the land not me, and no doubt there were plant species on Cyprus that lay prior claim to any human inhabitation. But let’s not get silly.
My own claim is that possession is 99% of the law and as such the Turkish Cypriot population has best claim at present,
...
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bakala - Contributor
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by tcklim » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:04 am
I'm going to actually have to agree with Piratouli on this one.... your argument is slightly ridiculous. Whilst I support reconciliation, and understand the point of view of the TC side, you cannot argue your point simply because Northern Cyprus was created as a result of an invasion under the pretext of a "peace operation". The constitution only declares that Turkey has a right to intervene to protect the sovereignty of the RoC, not to divide it in two.
No-one is denying you any right at all to your identity or nationality. You are Cypriot (I assume), as everyone else. You don't need TRNC recognition for that.
No-one is denying you any right at all to your identity or nationality. You are Cypriot (I assume), as everyone else. You don't need TRNC recognition for that.
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tcklim - Member
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by bakala » Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:27 am
...
The Turkish Cypriots decided to push their nationality as Turkish Cypriots because they didn’t feel that the Greek Cypriots would give them any representation in the Islands Government, they had after 74 a large part of the island under control of the turkish forces which was now protected from greek interference they elected their own government with their own elected officials and declared independence from the original Greek run Cypriot government,
The Subsequent refusal by Greece to politically recognise the TRNC doesn’t make any difference to the TRNC; The TRNC couldn’t really care less what Greece feels. The rest of the world will decide whether the TRNC is recognised and there is nothing the Greek side can do about it, the years of constant lobbying for support for a cause of non recognition has not changed a thing, the Anan plan was the last gamble for reconciliation, which was voted out by the Greek Cypriots,
The world recognises that as it was the last chance for reconciliation what’s next?
The obvious next move is recognition of the TRNC and the rest of the world deals with a republic of north Cyprus, if Greece and the south part of the island continues to refuse to recognise the TRNC then that’s their tough luck, the world moves on, its up to Greece and the greek Cypriots to go where the bus is going or get off and walk.
World opinion is swinging towards recognition and it won’t stop now. The Greek Cypriot refusal to accept the Anan Plan only gave it more inertia.
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The Turkish Cypriots decided to push their nationality as Turkish Cypriots because they didn’t feel that the Greek Cypriots would give them any representation in the Islands Government, they had after 74 a large part of the island under control of the turkish forces which was now protected from greek interference they elected their own government with their own elected officials and declared independence from the original Greek run Cypriot government,
The Subsequent refusal by Greece to politically recognise the TRNC doesn’t make any difference to the TRNC; The TRNC couldn’t really care less what Greece feels. The rest of the world will decide whether the TRNC is recognised and there is nothing the Greek side can do about it, the years of constant lobbying for support for a cause of non recognition has not changed a thing, the Anan plan was the last gamble for reconciliation, which was voted out by the Greek Cypriots,
The world recognises that as it was the last chance for reconciliation what’s next?
The obvious next move is recognition of the TRNC and the rest of the world deals with a republic of north Cyprus, if Greece and the south part of the island continues to refuse to recognise the TRNC then that’s their tough luck, the world moves on, its up to Greece and the greek Cypriots to go where the bus is going or get off and walk.
World opinion is swinging towards recognition and it won’t stop now. The Greek Cypriot refusal to accept the Anan Plan only gave it more inertia.
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bakala - Contributor
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by Piratis » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:23 pm
[quote="bakala"]Piratis
the whole point is that by the terms of the UN human righrs charter its illegal to deny anyones right to a nationality
and everyone has the right to change thier nationality
[quote]
Nobody is denying them the right to a nationality. they are Republic of Cyprus citizens. Nobody is denying them the right to change their nationality to something else. They can become Turkish nationals if they wish.
Therefore we ask for no violation of their human rights at all. Performing ethnic cleansing, declaring a separate state, foreign occupation etc, have never been their human or other rights.
And now lets see the human rights violations that are violated by the actions and demands of Turkey:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
And also note this:
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
The way forward is the respect of the human, legal and democratic rights for ALL Cypriots regardless of their race, and not to look for excuses as to why these human right violations should continue.
By the way Balaka, in another threat you claimed to be a "moderate". Are you serious? You are supporting the most extreme nationalistic arguments of Turks, you have total disregard about the human rights of Greek Cypriots, while you are trying to find human right violations against TCs out of nowhere, and then you come here to pretend to be a "peace loving moderate"?
Your hate against Greek Cypriots can be seen from a mile away my friend. You can't even hide it. So stop pretending.
the whole point is that by the terms of the UN human righrs charter its illegal to deny anyones right to a nationality
and everyone has the right to change thier nationality
[quote]
Nobody is denying them the right to a nationality. they are Republic of Cyprus citizens. Nobody is denying them the right to change their nationality to something else. They can become Turkish nationals if they wish.
Therefore we ask for no violation of their human rights at all. Performing ethnic cleansing, declaring a separate state, foreign occupation etc, have never been their human or other rights.
And now lets see the human rights violations that are violated by the actions and demands of Turkey:
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
And also note this:
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.
The way forward is the respect of the human, legal and democratic rights for ALL Cypriots regardless of their race, and not to look for excuses as to why these human right violations should continue.
By the way Balaka, in another threat you claimed to be a "moderate". Are you serious? You are supporting the most extreme nationalistic arguments of Turks, you have total disregard about the human rights of Greek Cypriots, while you are trying to find human right violations against TCs out of nowhere, and then you come here to pretend to be a "peace loving moderate"?
Your hate against Greek Cypriots can be seen from a mile away my friend. You can't even hide it. So stop pretending.
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Piratis - Moderator
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by Nikiforos » Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:51 pm
The TCs were overrepresented in the Cyprus government of 1960. The Annan fiasco would have given them even greater representation.
It is unacceptable that an 18% minority would be given EQUAL representation to the 80% majority. Even in liberal America, I doubt if a majority of the people would agree that the 13% African American minority should be given veto power and 50:50 equal representation in the legislature, police, and other federal jobs. That is a recipe for disaster and civil war.
By definition, the TCs are a minority in Cyprus constituting 18% of the population. That's the way it is.
It is unacceptable that an 18% minority would be given EQUAL representation to the 80% majority. Even in liberal America, I doubt if a majority of the people would agree that the 13% African American minority should be given veto power and 50:50 equal representation in the legislature, police, and other federal jobs. That is a recipe for disaster and civil war.
By definition, the TCs are a minority in Cyprus constituting 18% of the population. That's the way it is.
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Nikiforos - Member
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- Location: USA
by bakala » Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:53 pm
The disproportionate election rights were the only way to guarantee the fair treatment of the Turkish Cypriots under a Greek Cypriot Government that operates under the control and direction of an outside power,
The Greek Cypriot Government were entrusted with the wellbeing and welfare of the Turkish Cypriots once before and everyone knows what happened, the state of the Islands people now is a divided nation. And a divided Island, as it is the Turkish Cypriots have a large slice that is entrusted to them by their Guardian Turkey,
Why should they give up control of the north to a Government that they don’t trust?
I have repeatedly asked this one question and never had an answer
If the Turks had not landed what would have become of the Turkish Cypriots?
And I do not hate any true Cypriots, the true Cypriots are the most honest and hospitable people on the planet that’s why I am going there to live.
The people I do despise are those who have moved in and pretended to be Cypriots and manipulate the two sides into being at each others throats so they can stay in power,
If the Turkish Cypriots came under the political umbrella of the south today and the Turkish Forces moved out. Within a decade Enosis would be a reality and the Island would be occupied by Greek forces, That scenario would be totally unacceptable to Turkey, A single domination force on Cyprus maybe undesirable to the rest of the world too, An independent Cyprus would be acceptable to the world but one dominated by Greece or Turkey would not, While the island is partitioned the world is more comfortable
The Islands Location makes it a Strategic Resource you only have to look at any map.
It dominates the western approach to the canal;
Perhaps we need to look at it from the military asset point of view
As an offensive military base its not much use to Turkey as it only adds 50 to 100 miles to its offensive capability. With the strike range capability of a modern military force today an added 40 miles isn’t much, However Turkey cant afford to have a 3000 square mile aircraft carrier occupied by an unfriendly Government 40 miles off its southern shore, For Turkey it is a defensive Military outpost that would have to be overcome before any offensive actions could ever be mounted against the southern coast of Turkey.
Cyprus is to Turkey what Cuba is to America. No problem at all if occupied by a friendly Government, an unacceptable threat if occupied by a hostile government
To Greece the opposite is true, As a defensive outpost it would be too easily cut off By unfriendly forces, Turkey could very easily fly interdiction missions from the Turkish Mainland over and around the whole island. In the event of hostilities, Air superiority would belong to Turkey within the first Hour, control of the Islands Airfields would pass to Turkey within 24 hours, and then the interdiction umbrella would extend north of the island half way to the coast of Greece. Obviously dominance of the approaches to the canal would pass to the occupying force,
In other words any eastern shipping trade belonging to the hostile nation would have to take the long route around Africa; economically this would have a disastrous effect on Greece, who has large shipping interests,
In the meantime the Island Cypriots would for the umpteenth time in their history find themselves the piggy in the middle of the crossfire of two nations with hostile intent, but what’s new about that?
All the political murmurings in the halls of power whisper about “two federal states and permanent partition” The independent route has been tried and failed so the next best bet is that a neutral Cyprus would be the best option all round,
With the control of the island divided and neutralized no single nation wields the offensive big stick and the western approaches to the canal are free for all.
The next move could very well come from the EU,
Permanent partition with two federal states,
(1) Recognition for the TRNC
(2) A special status of Protection of independence of both states guaranteed by the combined forces of the EU.
(3) The whole island to be a demilitarized zone with the exception of bases paid for and used by EU forces under a shared resources scheme, one in the north one in the south, the strategic control of the canal would pass to the EU.
(4) The gradual removal of the Turkish Forces with a guarantee of acceptance into the EU in the next decade,
( 5 ) the setting up of a land compensation scheme that guarantees that no one gets dispossessed , ( enough people have lost homes )
In effect the whole island would come under the protection of the whole of Europe the bases would provide extra revenue for both states,
The Cypriots north and south would never need to have a military force of their own of any kind because EU forces would provide any military protection if ever needed
This is one possible scenario that would satisfy both sides and the best chance of a peaceful solution for a people too long in a conflict they do not want
....
The Greek Cypriot Government were entrusted with the wellbeing and welfare of the Turkish Cypriots once before and everyone knows what happened, the state of the Islands people now is a divided nation. And a divided Island, as it is the Turkish Cypriots have a large slice that is entrusted to them by their Guardian Turkey,
Why should they give up control of the north to a Government that they don’t trust?
I have repeatedly asked this one question and never had an answer
If the Turks had not landed what would have become of the Turkish Cypriots?
And I do not hate any true Cypriots, the true Cypriots are the most honest and hospitable people on the planet that’s why I am going there to live.
The people I do despise are those who have moved in and pretended to be Cypriots and manipulate the two sides into being at each others throats so they can stay in power,
If the Turkish Cypriots came under the political umbrella of the south today and the Turkish Forces moved out. Within a decade Enosis would be a reality and the Island would be occupied by Greek forces, That scenario would be totally unacceptable to Turkey, A single domination force on Cyprus maybe undesirable to the rest of the world too, An independent Cyprus would be acceptable to the world but one dominated by Greece or Turkey would not, While the island is partitioned the world is more comfortable
The Islands Location makes it a Strategic Resource you only have to look at any map.
It dominates the western approach to the canal;
Perhaps we need to look at it from the military asset point of view
As an offensive military base its not much use to Turkey as it only adds 50 to 100 miles to its offensive capability. With the strike range capability of a modern military force today an added 40 miles isn’t much, However Turkey cant afford to have a 3000 square mile aircraft carrier occupied by an unfriendly Government 40 miles off its southern shore, For Turkey it is a defensive Military outpost that would have to be overcome before any offensive actions could ever be mounted against the southern coast of Turkey.
Cyprus is to Turkey what Cuba is to America. No problem at all if occupied by a friendly Government, an unacceptable threat if occupied by a hostile government
To Greece the opposite is true, As a defensive outpost it would be too easily cut off By unfriendly forces, Turkey could very easily fly interdiction missions from the Turkish Mainland over and around the whole island. In the event of hostilities, Air superiority would belong to Turkey within the first Hour, control of the Islands Airfields would pass to Turkey within 24 hours, and then the interdiction umbrella would extend north of the island half way to the coast of Greece. Obviously dominance of the approaches to the canal would pass to the occupying force,
In other words any eastern shipping trade belonging to the hostile nation would have to take the long route around Africa; economically this would have a disastrous effect on Greece, who has large shipping interests,
In the meantime the Island Cypriots would for the umpteenth time in their history find themselves the piggy in the middle of the crossfire of two nations with hostile intent, but what’s new about that?
All the political murmurings in the halls of power whisper about “two federal states and permanent partition” The independent route has been tried and failed so the next best bet is that a neutral Cyprus would be the best option all round,
With the control of the island divided and neutralized no single nation wields the offensive big stick and the western approaches to the canal are free for all.
The next move could very well come from the EU,
Permanent partition with two federal states,
(1) Recognition for the TRNC
(2) A special status of Protection of independence of both states guaranteed by the combined forces of the EU.
(3) The whole island to be a demilitarized zone with the exception of bases paid for and used by EU forces under a shared resources scheme, one in the north one in the south, the strategic control of the canal would pass to the EU.
(4) The gradual removal of the Turkish Forces with a guarantee of acceptance into the EU in the next decade,
( 5 ) the setting up of a land compensation scheme that guarantees that no one gets dispossessed , ( enough people have lost homes )
In effect the whole island would come under the protection of the whole of Europe the bases would provide extra revenue for both states,
The Cypriots north and south would never need to have a military force of their own of any kind because EU forces would provide any military protection if ever needed
This is one possible scenario that would satisfy both sides and the best chance of a peaceful solution for a people too long in a conflict they do not want
....
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bakala - Contributor
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by pumpernickle » Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:04 pm
why not.....just everyone admit they did wrong, and then try and be friends.
No point in dragging up the past. Everyone with a brain knows that Turk schools and Greek schools teach horrendous propaganda and lies to their children. Must stop, and people need to be open and forgiving.
Greeks - should be ashamed. As Christians, you should be all up for the new testament and forgiveness and all that malarkey, so what's the deal?
No point in dragging up the past. Everyone with a brain knows that Turk schools and Greek schools teach horrendous propaganda and lies to their children. Must stop, and people need to be open and forgiving.
Greeks - should be ashamed. As Christians, you should be all up for the new testament and forgiveness and all that malarkey, so what's the deal?
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by growuptcs » Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:42 pm
It's not even the Turkish government or military that needs conditioning, its the Turkish people that need to come down to planet earth. The terms that your trying to still dish to the Greeks, you know and we know its not going to bring peace in the EU. If you still want to play this peace game, at least be honest from here so the whole EU can tell you "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out". Instead of wasting all our time, or walking away again to a comprimising method that educated nations all agree on. Either grow up, or stay in limbo, gotta make a choice though procrastinators, because your insanity caused you to be in this corner that your all in.
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