Cyprus-Forum.com

[rawk]

cypezokyli

How did you know that your posting would not stand without a response from me. It was as obvious as the day is long. Some of what I said has obviously touched a nerve when I responed to andri_cy.

So you believe my saying is a "cheap intelligent excuse" to justify some land purchase in the north, concocted afterwards to justify my actions? You question the veracity of my family history and my account of my ancestor being struck out his father's will because he chose to follow his heart and not his father's wishes. I was merely trying to explain that land owned is not the be all and end all, even if it now belongs to someone else you have to move on.

Your continual harping on about the right of return of GCs to their northern properties is lacking in reality, so much has changed its becoming untenable, I was on a TRNC website tonight where the topic was about bad driving and accidents. One indignant poster said it was caused in their area by GCs driving around trying to identify land and locations after 32 years,suddenly spotting a landmark and pulling to a halt much to the consternation to other traffic.

To use the German example was also rash. They should not be allowed to exist? But they were punished as a people for "some fools", could that be most of the population that joined the Nazi Party by 1938? Yes they were punished. How many Sudaten Germans own land in the Czeck Republic? Where is Prussia, remember Prussia, or is that in Poland now? Alsace/Lorraine? I think that belongs to France now, What country was divided up and its army disbanded. Whose people were punished, and were social pariahs for 2 generations. I think it was Germany after the war. You were lucky in Cyprus, if Turkey hadn't invaded, you would have the the national popularity of Serbia today and equal isolation, no EU membership there.

Don't twist my words to make me a thief, if communities act like fools, whether by inclination or design, they act collectively and reap the rewards for their actions collectively, accept that. I have always advocated the return of GC land if is still untouched, otherwise it has to be compensation if built on, likewise for all that TC land in the south that many GCs were told was Government land.

There is no no black and white in these scenarios, cypezokyli, I visited my family's ancestoral farm in 2000. The current owner welcomed me and allowed me to take photographs of the interior. He even left me alone with my sons in the living room before the fireplace my forefathers had sat to reflect on our own, then he showed us out. We got in our car and drove away, I have not returned since. It belongs to someone else now and always will, we had been there and now we are somewhere else.

I know the land situation in the north is no bed of roses and crooked lawyers, land developers and estate agents are taking advantage of the situation. I have no truck with them and I guess that is why the Home Buyers Association has been set up. I don't belong to this association nor have had any contact with it.

rawk

[Agios Amvrosios]

So you believe my saying is a "cheap intelligent excuse" to justify some land purchase in the north, concocted afterwards to justify my actions? You question the veracity of my family history and my account of my ancestor being struck out his father's will because he chose to follow his heart and not his father's wishes. I was merely trying to explain that land owned is not the be all and end all, even if it now belongs to someone else you have to move on.

Your views are so barbaric and inhumane. You simply do not see that wiping out entire ethnic groups in an area can never be justified. It is so out of touch with the last 150 years. Ethnic cleansing is not a crime because some individuals have land removed. The crime is the systematic removal of entire groups of people for no other reason apart from the ethnic background.

You just don't get it do you. Your so brain washed with blind nationalism that you think that a war crime should be overlooked and forgotten and everyone should live happily every after. Your primitive view of justice involves the punishment of innocent unconnected victims with criminals. Infact under your system of random justice most of the Criminals are the ones who kept their communities. It is people in unrelated areas who have suffered. That kind of justice may be accepted in pre EU turkey but in EU-Topia it is sim ply not good enough.

"The reality of the situation" as many Turkish nationilists ask us to accept is that an obvious and documented war crime should be left unpunished and forgotten as 'a favour' to criminal who now wants entry into the EU.

Well as someone with nothing to lose so far as Cyprus goes I say to " Angourka war criminals Angourka me angathia jai jerata!" (cucumbers with thorns and horns) until the war crime is addressed.

[rawk]

Agios
αγγούρια με τα κέρατα και τα αγκάθια. Very easy to say! I'd say Ξινά σταφύλια.

I am not barbaric or inhumane, I face reality and I draw on my owm personal experience. How many times do I have to keep saying this. You cannot go back to 1974 and say sorry, please can we have our ball back?
Big Boys Rules, you gambled on a bit of ethnic cleansing for a big Greek national dream of Enosis. It went horridly wrong, now sort it, make the best of it, by hook or by crook, forget your cucumbers or sour grapes.
Solve it by facing reality and get those muppets in power to come to a solution or ten years down the line you'll be still peeling cucumbers.

By the way, I've got a busy schedule coming up, have a pop at Bakala or Mrfromng next!

rawk

[cypezokyli]

thanks for changing your signiture

[Agios Amvrosios]

you gambled

YOU? WHO me?

I did not do anything. I wasn't even born. This is my point. In the modern world it is wrong to say to an individual or group of individuals one of you individuals may have done something wrong but you must all be punished indiscriminantly.(nothing has been proven in an international court) . Is this"the reality" of how Turkish Justice works? Don't the Turks also want to protect the innoncent?


You should know better than to talk to someone with Nothing to lose in Cyprus except for "15 year compensation bonds" about reality and then ask us to accept this war crime as a solution so Turkey can accede to the EU.

I want Turkey in the EU but if Turkey wants to join it has to respect the Human Rights of Refugees and pay the price. Turkey will only join the EU through Cyprus. Otherwise it can wait 500 years, if it still exists. Just one point I cannot see a solution within the next 10 years. I can't see it.Perhaps your grand children's generation will respect Human Rights and believe that Human Rights should be what "reality is based on" not a reality based on war crimes.

[cypezokyli]

How did you know that your posting would not stand without a response from me. It was as obvious as the day is long. Some of what I said has obviously touched a nerve when I responed to andri_cy.

ofcource i expected a reply !!!
what touched a nerve was your signiture. thanks for changing it.
do you consider it an achievement being able to touch a nerve ?

So you believe my saying is a "cheap intelligent excuse" to justify some land purchase in the north, concocted afterwards to justify my actions? You question the veracity of my family history and my account of my ancestor being struck out his father's will because he chose to follow his heart and not his father's wishes. I was merely trying to explain that land owned is not the be all and end all, even if it now belongs to someone else you have to move on.

you had a story and you hat a signiture. all i did was to put the two together. logical deduction. as simple as that!!

i would have never call someone a fool who followed his heart. remember am i still in the world where i dont believe cars and mobiles are what people want

Your continual harping on about the right of return of GCs to their northern properties is lacking in reality, so much has changed its becoming untenable, I was on a TRNC website tonight where the topic was about bad driving and accidents. One indignant poster said it was caused in their area by GCs driving around trying to identify land and locations after 32 years,suddenly spotting a landmark and pulling to a halt much to the consternation to other traffic

around half of the gcs didnot cross the border.
around half of the gcs have crossed the border once or twice, to visit their land in the first year. they never went to the north again.
a small minority of gcs (including myself) go often to the north, but not to visit their homes. they do it bc they believe in gcs and tcs being together, and at the same time being accused as being traitors bc they spend money on the north.
an even smaller minority goes to the north to play to the casinos.

not so many people going in the north nowadays in search of old locations....still, we are among the worst drivers in europe.

To use the German example was also rash. They should not be allowed to exist? But they were punished as a people for "some fools", could that be most of the population that joined the Nazi Party by 1938? Yes they were punished. How many Sudaten Germans own land in the Czeck Republic? Where is Prussia, remember Prussia, or is that in Poland now? Alsace/Lorraine? I think that belongs to France now, What country was divided up and its army disbanded. Whose people were punished, and were social pariahs for 2 generations. I think it was Germany after the war. You were lucky in Cyprus, if Turkey hadn't invaded, you would have the the national popularity of Serbia today and equal isolation, no EU membership there.

alsace and loraine belonged to france since the end of WWI
the biggest part of prussia belonged to poland since WWI.
so germany didnot get smaller.
it got smaller and got punished hard after WWI. and guess what that brought!!!!? .... yes, the answer is indeed : more hate and WWII.
after WWII , they were given enough money to build the third biggest economy in the world.
but it is true : it was divided on a packet of cigarretes by two arrogant winners.
45 years later, the germans who use to own land in the east came and claimed it back , and they took it back. (shame on those german courts) believe me, i know. i studied in east germany. people were kicked out of the houses that were given to them by the state... 45 years later. obviously the court recognised the title , and didnot ask the very simple question : you fool, why did you cast your property away in the wind? why did you leave east germany ?

i dont expect the same to happen in cyprus. but once again, even tcs who have suffered "our" "will for enosis" and demand partition, dont say well...forget it. but, they are tcs....

Don't twist my words to make me a thief, if communities act like fools, whether by inclination or design, they act collectively and reap the rewards for their actions collectively, accept that. I have always advocated the return of GC land if is still untouched, otherwise it has to be compensation if built on, likewise for all that TC land in the south that many GCs were told was Government land.

i was reffering to the signiture were you mentioned "those who find them". i dont believe that anyone buying property in the north does not know what he buys. that was my point.
my second point , was that their purchase makes them have a very predicted idea about the cyppro. and all of them exactly the same!!! sometimes, even more extreme than tcs themselves.

could you provide us with a specific number of those "many" gcs ?

[cypezokyli]

There is no no black and white in these scenarios, cypezokyli, I visited my family's ancestoral farm in 2000. The current owner welcomed me and allowed me to take photographs of the interior. He even left me alone with my sons in the living room before the fireplace my forefathers had sat to reflect on our own, then he showed us out.

a small hint: if it ever happens that gcs come to visit their old land bc we tend to be very emotional down here, take this small advice and despite what you believe - do not tell them sth of the kind : "fools who...."
honestly. dont.

this was translated by a tc friend. it was published in africa (tc newpaper) 26.03.2006

The story does not end here,Ilhan explains.He tells us how his relative (a tc) found her job in the South. She was a refugee who lived in a Greek Cypriot refugee house in the North. It was the legal owner of the house who came for a visit two years ago and saw how badly she needed a job who helped her get it!!!

while as far as i know from the orams case, the gcs didnot go their with the explicit purpose to sue them. it was the disrespect and arrogance of the orams that made the old owners so furious, that they chose the courts way.

we can act very diverse, according to the reaction we get.

so if it ever happens, dont say what you really think.

[andri_cy]

Agios
αγγούρια με τα κέρατα και τα αγκάθια. Very easy to say! I'd say Ξινά σταφύλια.

I hope you were not trying to convince us you speak greek cause αγγούρια με τα κέρατα και τα αγκάθια is not an actual phrase and I do not know how Ξινά σταφύλια even made its ay into the whole conversation. Anyway, I kinda feel for you that you decided to buy cheap land illegally when you had the chance to buy some legally even if it was a bit more expensive. But then again you are a big boy and you gambled with your own money and if there comes a day where you have to give the land back I am sure that you will not ask for your ball back(your money that is).

[rawk]

Thank you andri_cy

Very succinctly put as ever, Big Boys Rules..... nothing ventured, nothing gained, and only risk what you can afford to loose. Its a tough old world out there and I've never had an illusions about it. Look upon every problem as a challange and be honest with yourself, invariably the first person one fools is oneself. Always place yourself outside oneself and check what you're thinking, welcome debate, it informs and tests your views, welcome new ideas but weigh them carefully. That's why I participate on these forums, but as I said a few posts back, I'm signing off now, I've got a busy schedule coming up that involves my work.
Bakala or Mrfromng are quite good for debate, I'm sure they will welcome your arguments.

Thank you for your thoughts

rawk

[andri_cy]

Well have fun with work and remember if you are too busy, you dont have to reply. I wont take offense.
Tooda