Cyprus-Forum.com

[bakala]

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Strahd

your statement that there is no Embargo only confirms your delusional state of mind, have you stopped taking the pills ?


the regular turkish troops are present to prevent any single nation dominating that area, the approach to the Suez canal has enormous tactical value .
the very idea that greece has a horde of any size at all is ridiculous, The turks have ( i think ) the 4 th largest standing army in the world,

Greece ceased to be a military threat to anyone other than the thousands of Turkish Cypriots on Cyprus in 74, after that there is no one else small enough to be a victim . unless you invade Monaco or Luxemberg,
you could always try to invade Italy, they should be easy for you. when the alliance declared the intention to invade iraq, italy surrendered just in case,

Strahd mate you seriously need to talk to a doctor



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[bakala]

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Strahd

Why doesn’t it surprise me that you should claim there is no embargo, the rest of the world knows there is one, ive lost count of the number of independent articles I have read about it, there are debates and questions about it all over the world from the United Nations, to the European court of Human rights, yet you claim there isn’t one ?

Have you been smoking wacky bakky with Agios again?


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[cypezokyli]

cypezokyli

Sorry mate for not replying to your earlier statement about a conflict or war always being a two way thing, never just one side that start a war.
Well

i suppose the Dutch could have capitulated in the face of the German Invasion of Holland, same for the Belgians, and of course France,
Who all capitulated eventually?
Up until Axis Forces virtually ruled Europe or made none aggression pacts with those that they didn’t rule, Germany had waged a war of aggression simply to annihilate all opposition and remove any threat to the future security of his (Adolph Hitler’s) new Europe,

I wonder what the world would be like today If Britain had not stood alone for two years and defied the Germans. England’s refusal to surrender spelled out the Future doom of the Axis

your example is flaud all the way.
first, it is not a civil war - but one of the two world wars (or lets say one of the three european wars in history ) - therefore it is an outlier case.

second , the reasons of WWII date as back as to signing of the treaty of lausagne. remember the principle : make them pay so they dont cause another war ? ... great policy, with obvious results.

third , the reason that you should refer to civil wars is very simple. bc if we start with hitler then i will be forced to destroy the beautiful picture you have for britain. colonialism was also sth that was caused by only one side. or do you think any ...how where they called ?..."underdeveloped" nation ever invited britain to "develop" them

i hope you dont want me to explain you the reasons that their is a difference between interstate and intrastate wars.

britain was not the only one who stood up against the nazis. dont forget that adolf made the tragic mistake of deciding to attack the soviet union... and leaving the job in england..... how to put it... undone

last since you opened this whole WWII thing. this approach i wonder where the world would have been today imagine what kinf of an arrogant b*****d one has to be , to meet with another arrogant b******d and draw on a packet of cigarette a line defining the future of the people of europe. imagine how arrogant one has to be. but it is true. imagine how the world would have been.

having that said. i consider the question answered

btw , may i ask where do you come from ?

[bakala]

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cypezokyli

Firstly let me go back to your original assertion
You claimed that it took two to make a war between the Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots, that’s sort of claiming that the turkish Cypriots being alive was enough to provoke the Greeks into killing them.

You also claim that all wars in history took two people to start them.
Myself I make no distinction between civil wars or world wars. People die, it’s only the number of people that actually die that changes. And for myself all wars of any size are obscene.
Sometimes wars are unavoidable no matter what anyone does because some unreasonable or greedy bastard wants to take something off someone else.
For instance

Adolph Hitler wanted European Domination. He saw a new Germany as the new style Rome, he wanted to bring a new order to Europe, first he had to do a bit of spring cleaning, like cleaning up the Jewish problem, The Jews through history have been very clever in the financial industries banking and stock markets, so the Jews had to go, he didn’t particularly like Catholics, Gypsies, Poles, or anyone else who didn’t subscribe to his way of thinking, so they had to go

Sounds like the Greek method of dealing with opposition to me. They didn’t like the Turkish Cypriot opposition to a greater Greece so they had to go. While they were at it they took care of the Greek Cypriot opposition too,

You ask where I come from

Well I come from the UK soon to move to Cyprus

My Grandfather served in WW1 and was wounded in a little battle at a place called the Somme. Ever heard of it, 60.000 British Soldiers died in one battle. The battle plan seemed to be that if we send enough soldiers over the top then the Germans will run out of bullets, once the last German has fired his last bullet we have won. Obviously the Germans cheated and kept making more bullets.

My Father served in WW2 in the far east and took part in a little skirmish at a place called Kohima. Look it up its an interesting tale, it was considered the British Armies
Thermopolae.

War is wrong and because one side kills more people than the other doesn’t make it any wrong’er or less right

And because when the final body count was complete and you found out that the Turks killed more Greeks than the Greeks killed Turks, it doesn’t excuse Greece from starting it, and don’t start the same old shite about no one was hurt until the Turks landed and you only put the Turkish Cypriots into the enclaves for their own protection. That’s like Hitler claiming Auswitz was a holiday resort

Lets face it mate
you were only one gas chamber short of a complete mini holocaust prior to the 74 landings, so don’t give me anymore we are the victims crap its wearing thin.



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[cypezokyli]

i was kind of sure you were british...

aihan hikmet, ahmet mouzafer giourkan, koutlou antali, fazil onter, dervis ali kavazoglou.

do you know who these people are ? (to safe you from the suspence the names are not greek)
do you know who killed them, and when?
and most important, do you know why they were killed ?

when you find out the answer let me know.
perhaps it will give you a hint that the problem is more complex than you think.
when you find out for what ideals these people were ready to die , then perhaps you will understand some more things.... but excuse me for saying that... you obviously have good reasons - personal interest - not to change your opinion... so i am wondering right now, why i bother

have the cyppro been as simple as it suits you to be, we wouldnt have had threads in this forum with gcs and tcs apologizing for the wrong doings of their communities. ..SURPRISED? yes, the tcs apologised too. and the people who did apologise where not even involved, but were cypriots enough to realise, that we all carry our responsibilities.
i dont know how many times i have proposed this up to now. buy the book : the oysters who lost their pearls. from sevgul uludag. its from a tc reporter . it describes , not politics but people. read it, and it will perhaps broaden your understandig... that is...if you want to broad it

dont take that as an offence but you cannot represent an average tc.
sorry...

[bakala]

cypezokyli

Britain was not the only one who stood up against the nazis. dont forget that adolf made the tragic mistake of deciding to attack the soviet union... and leaving the job in england..... how to put it... undone,

Adolph left the job in England undone because it was too tough a nut to crack. And despite signing a none aggression pact with Russia he invaded anyway in June 1941,
Sort of like the Greeks when they signed the 1960 agreement and broke it,
France capitulated after the Germans marched into Paris in June 1940 from then until Germany invaded Russia only Britain opposed German domination of Europe.


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[andri_cy]

Back in 1974, the Greek Cypriot population of this island had a choice between being Cypriot or Greek. They chose the latter and closed their hearts and minds against their Turkish brothers and sisters.

Perhaps your old EOKA B skeletons are history but I think there are a lot of TCs who would prefer to wait to see how this shiny new democratic Cyprus fares before starting to trust it.

rawk

Rawk first off are you GC or TC or a total foreigner to the subject? Just asking.
And to set the records straight no one is standing up to EOKA B traitors. They not only killed TC as you would like to believe because it suits you, they also killed GC's that resisted them. They were just traitors working with Junta. They werent out to get specifically the TC's only but everyone else who they thought was against their plans and that includes Greeks and Greek cypriots.

[rawk]

andri_cy

Please see my posting of Fri Mar 24 2006 6:45 pm re EOKA's treatment of GCs. On that note, why is my identity suddenly become important to this debate?

I don't think I'm "foreign" to it, and its important to me and my children, but if it helps you my barber is a charming Greek Cypriot called Chris and I live on an island, but not the one that includes the countries of England, Scotland and Wales. Nor even on the smaller one called Ireland next to it, although I have lived there during its troubled history.

I take my nickname from the much longer name of the farm and land that was in my family's possession for generations from some 600 years ago. It is no longer ours, and I don't think it will ever will be again, all I have got our some old wills. Even these just show that my personal ancestor was struck out with a pittance and the farm given to his younger brother by his father for challenging his wishes and marrying a girl from the "wrong" village. He was 34 at the time. Does that help?

rawk

[cypezokyli]

andri_cy

Please see my posting of Fri Mar 24 2006 6:45 pm re EOKA's treatment of GCs. On that note, why is my identity suddenly become important to this debate?

I don't think I'm "foreign" to it, and its important to me and my children, but if it helps you my barber is a charming Greek Cypriot called Chris and I live on an island, but not the one that includes the countries of England, Scotland and Wales. Nor even on the smaller one called Ireland next to it, although I have lived there during its troubled history.

I take my nickname from the much longer name of the farm and land that was in my family's possession for generations from some 600 years ago. It is no longer ours, and I don't think it will ever will be again, all I have got our some old wills. Even these just show that my personal ancestor was struck out with a pittance and the farm given to his younger brother by his father for challenging his wishes and marrying a girl from the "wrong" village. He was 34 at the time. Does that help?

rawk

its not exactly the ethnicity that is important (even though many can be concluded from that). but it is very interesting to know a general backround of people. if you look in this section, once i opened a thread : where do you get your sources from , what was it that affected the opinion you currently have on the cyppro ?

now wouldnt you say that there is a chaotic difference between
a) a tc who believes in partition bc he has lost a close person of him, in the intercomunal fights. a person who has personally suffered and has a reason to believe that gc are dangerous.
b) a british who bought cheap gc land in the north (while he could have bought more expensive tc land in the north... i guess you also saw those advertisements in the north saying "buy land with legal tc titles" ) and who started having an opinion on the cyppro only after the orams went to court.

the difference between the two is huge bc
1) the first is not a law. tcs that suffered are the first ones who understand the pain of their compatriots. while for the second group of people it is a law. all of them carry the simplistic view of the cyppro : "it was gcs fault , or even better some cheap "intelligent" excuse of the kind " If fools cast their possessions to the winds, are they that find them thieves? "

2) with the first group of people i know what to do. have you ever heard the story of tilephos ? the oracle told him that his wound can be healed only from the person who caused that wound. i have a friend whose grandfather is a missing person. (do you know this aspect of the cyppro ? there are around 800 tcs and 1600 gcs missing). discussions with him on the cyppro always came down to "why did they have to take away an 80 year old shepherd ? what did he do to them ? why dont they just tell us where he is? " . but his attitude towards tcs started to change when i brought him to contact with tcs. and he is not aggresive anymore with the people "who have taken his grandpa away from him". but you see i know what to do with him.
while, when it comes to people whose opinion on the cyppro is formed strictly on personnal interest, i dont see that there is much i can do about it..... any suggestions ?

now to your signiture :

If fools cast their possessions to the winds, are they that find them thieves

i dont know if that story you posted is true. but thats how you consider your ancestor who lost his property? a fool who casted his pocession in the wind ?
you have every right to believe that for your personal story.
in cyprus, there are some minor differences.
1) the fools do not represent the whole population. and the whole population should not pay for act of some fools. if that were the case, no german should be allowed to exist today
2) the people abandoned their properties bc their lives was in danger and didnot "cast them away in the wind". and most of them still have the key of their house (i know that my grandfather has his) . its kind of ironic, but when the left they locked the door behind them.
3) those who have them now , have not "found" those properties. they bought them bc they were cheap. they did not find them, but they exactly knew what they were buying bc 1) their embassy warns them in its official website 2) the advertisements i have already mentioned , should have put the average person into some kind of thought : i mean when you want to buy land in france are there two kind of prices , one for "leagal french titles" (who are more expensive) and one for lets say "others" . so its not "find" them. these are decisions taken under full information. its like me selling you the mona lisa painting (which came to my pocession - it doesnot matter how). and when the police comes to you, you say : "but I didnot steal it".
4) even tcs who believe in partition all of them propose some land return, instead of arguing : "you have casted your poccesion in the wind". now, why do they do that....considering they know that "we have casted our pocessions in the wind" ?


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hey bakala. any luck with those names ?

[andri_cy]

andri_cy

why is my identity suddenly become important to this debate?

I was just wondering how you are connected to the island, and where you get your information from. I didnt mean it in an insulting way or anything. You just seem to have some views and was wondering where those derive from.