Cyprus-Forum.com

[stuballstu]

Simon

The 1960 agreements are a main reason why Cyprus has the problems it has just now. GC's go on about human rights and stolen lands TC's view Turkey as a saviour to their existence and Turkey view their intervention as legal under the 1960's agreement. Why would anyone ever go back to that? it was already proved that it did not work. Whats different now?

So because there is no EOKA anymore or military regime and no planned coup everything is now suddenly ok and Turkish troups can go back to Turkey? Unlikely to happen i'm sure u will agree.

What you are suggesting with a revolving presidency may help but the problem with that is that it can be construed as racist. As you know with Cyprus being an EU member there is certain EU laws which cover equal equality. In fact in the UK ethnic minorities have more rights than UK citizens. For example in the Fire Brigade to follow EU rules certain %'s of officers must be of ethnic minorities. A coloured person who is gay is more likely to get a job with the Fire Brigade and a while hetrosexual man of UK origin. A good friend of mine works for the personnel dept of one of the Brigades. It is not the best qualified person who always gets the job.

Now i know i'll get all the "What about our human rights when the Turkish Army invaded and stole my land" brigade posting now. All that can be posted about that has been.

Times have changed since the 60's and 70's.

You also mentioned the settlers. How will this work? What if the Cyprus problem drags on another 10- 15 years which is conceivable and Turkey get EU membership? How can you tell these people to get off the island. They now have rights as EU citizens and have freedom of movement and work without resctriction between EU states. The ROC government by introducing the EU to the problem may also have added to the problem

The Cyprus problem is like a snowball coming down the mountain the more time goes by the larger and more probmatic it gets.

[Piratis]

simon

stop wasting our and your time, go to bed or play with your pc or something. No-one is disputing what Piratis said. we all know that the turks started it, and that gcs must have been second class citizens under the ottomans, what we dispute is how we can stop this killing of each other, which has been going on for three hundred. For the last 30 years we have taken a break but it has taken the refugees, 6000 dead,l and the intervention of the Turkish army to put and end to the last killing phase which lasted 14 yrs 1960 - 1974. We have currently returned to the 60s position of looking for a solution. got any sensible ideas?

Rolo, I know your position that ethnic cleansing is the "solution". However in this case you have to accept that the solution could also be the ethnic cleansing of Turkish Cypriots. Removing the 140.000 TCs from Cyprus would "solve" the problem in the same way that ethnically cleansing 200.000 GCs would "solve" it and even better since now TCs and GCs would be miles apart with a sea separating them, right?

Even if we forget international law and we accept your assumption that TCs and GCs are not able to live together and therefore they should be separated, even then the Turkish occupation is nothing less that theft, since TCs took twice as much as they left behind.

Also based on your assumption Turkey should immediately withdrew her application for entering the EU or be vetoed right now, since if we allow Turks to mix with Greeks all hell would brake loose and killings and all the other things you talk about will happen.

However lets get real here. TCs and GCs are no different than any other people in the world. The difference in Cyprus (and some other places) is that the differences between GCs and Tc's have been exploited by some foreigners (Turkey, UK, US) to serve their own interests.

If foreigners were not involved in such a negative way (but instead in a positive one) then Cyprus could/can develop into a normal democratic country like all the rest. No ethnic cleansing would be needed, neither "imaginative" constitutions with no similar in the world.

[kerez]

simon

stop wasting our and your time, go to bed or play with your pc or something. No-one is disputing what Piratis said. we all know that the turks started it, and that gcs must have been second class citizens under the ottomans, what we dispute is how we can stop this killing of each other, which has been going on for three hundred. For the last 30 years we have taken a break but it has taken the refugees, 6000 dead,l and the intervention of the Turkish army to put and end to the last killing phase which lasted 14 yrs 1960 - 1974. We have currently returned to the 60s position of looking for a solution. got any sensible ideas?

Rolo, I know your position that ethnic cleansing is the "solution". However in this case you have to accept that the solution could also be the ethnic cleansing of Turkish Cypriots. Removing the 140.000 TCs from Cyprus would "solve" the problem in the same way that ethnically cleansing 200.000 GCs would "solve" it and even better since now TCs and GCs would be miles apart with a sea separating them, right?

Even if we forget international law and we accept your assumption that TCs and GCs are not able to live together and therefore they should be separated, even then the Turkish occupation is nothing less that theft, since TCs took twice as much as they left behind.

Also based on your assumption Turkey should immediately withdrew her application for entering the EU or be vetoed right now, since if we allow Turks to mix with Greeks all hell would brake loose and killings and all the other things you talk about will happen.

However lets get real here. TCs and GCs are no different than any other people in the world. The difference in Cyprus (and some other places) is that the differences between GCs and Tc's have been exploited by some foreigners (Turkey, UK, US) to serve their own interests.

If foreigners were not involved in such a negative way (but instead in a positive one) then Cyprus could/can develop into a normal democratic country like all the rest. No ethnic cleansing would be needed, neither "imaginative" constitutions with no similar in the world.

Are you saying that the GC would start a war with the ambition of getting the north of the tc????

[Simon]

Whats different now?

So because there is no EOKA anymore or military regime and no planned coup everything is now suddenly ok and Turkish troups can go back to Turkey? Unlikely to happen i'm sure u will agree.

A lot is different, indeed you have pointed out some differences yourself. I agree with you, it is unlikely to happen but my question is why? With all of the above no longer relevant, what need is there for the Turkish army. I seriously can't see GCs trying to take over the whole island like last time after what has now happened, and I'm sure you must agree with this.

What you are suggesting with a revolving presidency may help but the problem with that is that it can be construed as racist. As you know with Cyprus being an EU member there is certain EU laws which cover equal equality. In fact in the UK ethnic minorities have more rights than UK citizens. For example in the Fire Brigade to follow EU rules certain %'s of officers must be of ethnic minorities. A coloured person who is gay is more likely to get a job with the Fire Brigade and a while hetrosexual man of UK origin. A good friend of mine works for the personnel dept of one of the Brigades. It is not the best qualified person who always gets the job.

The problem is that GCs can't win either way. The TCs concern is that they will by dominated by a GC state isn't it? So you offer a rotating presidency and it still has problems. Everything has problems, but we must compromise. I don't think it will be construed as racist, racist would be only allowing one ethnic group to have the presidency permanently. However, I actually agree with you that a rotating presidency is not right, so OK, lets just elect a leader on who is right for the job. That is the only other option if a solution is to be met.

You also mentioned the settlers. How will this work? What if the Cyprus problem drags on another 10- 15 years which is conceivable and Turkey get EU membership? How can you tell these people to get off the island. They now have rights as EU citizens and have freedom of movement and work without resctriction between EU states. The ROC government by introducing the EU to the problem may also have added to the problem

Anyone who is not a citizen of the RoC, has not been born in Cyprus, or is not married to a citizen of the RoC should be made to leave in my opinion. They are illegal immigrants of the RoC. However, if they are EU citizens, then obviously they will have the right to stay in Cyprus to work etc, but they will not be citizens of Cyprus. This is the crucial difference.

[Piratis]

simon

stop wasting our and your time, go to bed or play with your pc or something. No-one is disputing what Piratis said. we all know that the turks started it, and that gcs must have been second class citizens under the ottomans, what we dispute is how we can stop this killing of each other, which has been going on for three hundred. For the last 30 years we have taken a break but it has taken the refugees, 6000 dead,l and the intervention of the Turkish army to put and end to the last killing phase which lasted 14 yrs 1960 - 1974. We have currently returned to the 60s position of looking for a solution. got any sensible ideas?

Rolo, I know your position that ethnic cleansing is the "solution". However in this case you have to accept that the solution could also be the ethnic cleansing of Turkish Cypriots. Removing the 140.000 TCs from Cyprus would "solve" the problem in the same way that ethnically cleansing 200.000 GCs would "solve" it and even better since now TCs and GCs would be miles apart with a sea separating them, right?

Even if we forget international law and we accept your assumption that TCs and GCs are not able to live together and therefore they should be separated, even then the Turkish occupation is nothing less that theft, since TCs took twice as much as they left behind.

Also based on your assumption Turkey should immediately withdrew her application for entering the EU or be vetoed right now, since if we allow Turks to mix with Greeks all hell would brake loose and killings and all the other things you talk about will happen.

However lets get real here. TCs and GCs are no different than any other people in the world. The difference in Cyprus (and some other places) is that the differences between GCs and Tc's have been exploited by some foreigners (Turkey, UK, US) to serve their own interests.

If foreigners were not involved in such a negative way (but instead in a positive one) then Cyprus could/can develop into a normal democratic country like all the rest. No ethnic cleansing would be needed, neither "imaginative" constitutions with no similar in the world.

Are you saying that the GC would start a war with the ambition of getting the north of the tc????

This is what you understood from my message?? Were did I talk about war?
The war had started the day Turkey invaded the sovereign Republic of Cyprus and what we have now is a cease fire. So how could GCs "start" a war?

[Agios Amvrosios]

The 1960 agreements are a main reason why Cyprus has the problems it has just now. GC's go on about human rights and stolen lands TC's view Turkey as a saviour to their existence and Turkey view their intervention as legal under the 1960's agreement. Why would anyone ever go back to that? it was already proved that it did not work. Whats different now?

The 1960 constitution was an imposed constitution. It was never decided at a democratic referendum. It was based on emphising ethnic division and establishing bases. Who drafted and imposed this solution. How nice it would have been if we were allowed to have half the rights enjoyed under Westminster Democracy. The Constitution was designed to collapse.

So because there is no EOKA anymore or military regime and no planned coup everything is now suddenly ok and Turkish troups can go back to Turkey? Unlikely to happen i'm sure u will agree.

Turkey uses many subtefuges to justify the illegal. Turkey perhaps was legally entitled to restore order. Killing 6000 mainly civilians and ethnically cleansing 200,000 is another thing altogether. this is illegal and accordingly you enjoy an embargo and pariah status. The embargo can be lifted in two ways- by international agreement or the withdrawal of Turkish troops. Any agreement must restore law. Greek Cypriots are in a win win situation.

What you are suggesting with a revolving presidency may help but the problem with that is that it can be construed as racist.

I agree . I thought Denktash came up with this monstrosity.

Times have changed since the 60's and 70's.

Last time I checked th ongoing ethnic cleansing of Cyprus by Turkey was still illegal. It will still be illegal in 50 or even 100 years.

You also mentioned the settlers. How will this work? What if the Cyprus problem drags on another 10- 15 years which is conceivable and Turkey get EU membership? How can you tell these people to get off the island. They now have rights as EU citizens and have freedom of movement and work without resctriction between EU states. The ROC government by introducing the EU to the problem may also have added to the problem

The entire Island is European Union soil and yet the legal owners of land in the Occupied areas are prevented by Turkey from enjoying freedom of movement and work without resctriction. We have to show a pass port to visit the grave sites of our family members in towns we have lived in for over 3500 years.

The Cyprus problem will not be solved in your life time and Turkish EU accession is unlikely to occur any time soon either if ever.

The Cyprus problem is like a snowball coming down the mountain the more time goes by the larger and more probmatic it gets.

It will snowball for Turkey refugees from places like Kyrenia who have been told that they will never be allowed to go to the homes perhaps have nothing to lose.The Cyprus problem can't get worse than that.

[stuballstu]

Simon

GC's never wanted just to take over the entire Island they wanted to join it to Greece, I dont think anyone can see another attempt at that happening again.

At this moment no one wins reference the rotating presidency scheme. No matter if the president was a GC or a TC they would be accused of unfairness towards their opposite. Just an idea, how about the political parties in the South match their policies with parties in the North and become 1 party. The executive comittee is then made up of members of that party having a vote. To try and explain this further take the UK. There is Labour, Conservative, Lib Dems, and other smaller parties. The Labour party is made up of the Scottish Labour Party, Welsh Labour Party and the Irish Labour Party. They all vote on candidates based on abilities to do the job at national level and not on race or wether they are Scots, English, Irish or Welsh. It would have to be a really brave group of politicians who propose this, but if it were to happen would show the world and Cypriots that there is hope for a united Cyprus. Its just a suggestion and i know it wouldnt be fullproof but it may be a good starting point.

With regards settlers the Cyprus problem may not be solved in our lifetime and is so complex that it is going to take a long time to build trust between 2 communities. So what happens to the setters. Turkey get EU admission the Cyprus problem is eventually solved these people do have rights as EU citizens. It does not make them Cyprus Citizens however it means they cant be forced to leave. Also what if the Cyprus problem is sorted before Turkeys EU admission, if it happens. What do you do to a settlers who is married to an ROC passport holder? What if a settler has stayed on the Island for more than 5 years. Under EU law that person is entitled to permanent residence on the Island. This is how envolving the EU is adding more problems than solutions.

[stuballstu]

Agios

The constitution was negotiated by representatives of the TC & GC communities, Greece and Turkey and was chaired by the UK. Yes the constitution did fail although it was thought to be good at the time. We can used hindsight and say it was designed to fail, but you can only say that because it did. When it was negotiated it was not done with all intents and purposes to fail. The politicians on all sides surely couldnt have seen that. I dont think there ever was a referendum over the constitution however was this not a job for the politicians? If there was a referendum at the time it would probably got a resounding "yes" because Cypriots wanted independence. So a referendum would not have been necessary.

[i]Quote:
So because there is no EOKA anymore or military regime and no planned coup everything is now suddenly ok and Turkish troups can go back to Turkey? Unlikely to happen i'm sure u will agree.
Turkey uses many subtefuges to justify the illegal. Turkey perhaps was legally entitled to restore order. Killing 6000 mainly civilians and ethnically cleansing 200,000 is another thing altogether. this is illegal and accordingly you enjoy an embargo and pariah status. The embargo can be lifted in two ways- by international agreement or the withdrawal of Turkish troops. Any agreement must restore law. Greek Cypriots are in a win win situation.[/i]

Turkey does use this to legalise the fact that their troops are here. However it was war and as you look at the events which have happened in Iraq and Afghanistan the biggest victims in war are civilians. It is an unfortunate bi product of war which can not be avoided. During wars people are displaced. Your view is ethnic cleansing Turkeys view is that it was war. Was ethnic cleansing not what was happening to TC's between 1960 and 1974?

The entire Island is European Union soil and yet the legal owners of land in the Occupied areas are prevented by Turkey from enjoying freedom of movement and work without resctriction. We have to show a pass port to visit the grave sites of our family members in towns we have lived in for over 3500 years.

This is because the occupiers are not EU members, although I agree with your point on visiting the "occupied areas" and having to show passports.

[Agios Amvrosios]

DO you honestly think that a post modernist constitution like that of the 1960 agreement could have been accepted via a referendum? To say that a constitution was "negotiated" does not say much for law or democracy. "Negotiatingwith these people " means "shut the F* up and sign here or else". Well 31 and 1/2 years the "or else" happened and so Greek Cypriots do not have anything else to lose. These people are very difficult to horse trade with.

Now we have Turkey and friends asking us for favours like dropping legitimate claims do Turkey's EU accession is easier.

[bg_turk]

Piratis, your thread is completely counterproductive to what you are trying to achieve. As long as your sense of ethnic and racial superiority allows you to view yourselve as a pure and noble victim, you will continue forgetting, justifying and forgiving your own crimes. And then any chance for a rational discussion is lost, a final account is never settled, the wounds have no chance to heal and the history will repeat itself time and time again..... And more and more blood will be spilled.