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Cyprus Property Crash ?

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Postby andri_cy » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:17 am

simonwjones wrote:Property doesnt go down in value. It may stead off but never does the price drop!

What price do you think I should pay for a new one bed apartment in Paphos?


Actually property values can freeze AND go down. Maybe if they did it wouldnt be a bad thing. Then I would buy a house instead of building on. Its a huge hassle with all the architects and the permits and all that. Meh
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Postby Svetlana » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:02 am

I am involved in property investment here. I can assure people that the demand for property remains strong; supply of property has risen sharply, as is natural given the large influx of foreigners buying property over the last five years - many of whom then want to move on. But demand is constant/rising.

2005 was a relatively quiet year but 2006 seems much more positive and this has convinced me to go forward with significant investment.

Much of the Market, in Paphos, is driven by British buyers; I am in the UK currently and reviewing the Market here, which starting to show good signs of recovery, this will have knock on affects in Cyprus.

Property should never be regarded as a short tem investment. Yes, you will see short term drops but I do not believe we are in for a major correction. People are juts making less profit on their sales than they might have done in the heady days of 2004.

Euro entry in 2008 will drive up prices, although those selling to move abroad at that stage will find that the devaluation of the Cypriot £ will offset those gains.



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Postby Tuberider » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:04 am

Hi guys, thanks for the responses !

Pumpernickle, I am glad you have noticed it too. I think in retrospect people will agree that we are in a bubble, but by then it will be too late. I understand perfectly your points regarding Cyprus not adhering to the laws of economics - but this is simply an anomaly casued by so many years of Cyprus being a closed semi-socialist system. Changes take time to feed through. Cypriots also still have family wealth to fall back on (land etc) and this gives them a cushion which discourages any real innovation or hard work from their side, which might eventually lead to competition and lower prices. Once this cushion disappears (and it is fading very quickly) reality will hit home and we will see a rapid shift in the mentality over here.

As for cars, I must disagree a bit there. I remember coming here on holiday in 1995 with £2,000 and not being able to afford to buy even the oldest car. The Cypriots were selling old cortinas and mark I VW golfs for two and a half grand !!! Cars here have gotten much cheaper, and will get cheaper still once our EU customs derogations expire.

The bursting of the CSE bubble was a classic lesson for the Cypriots in the laws of economics. If you were smart and had half an education you got out early before the crash. Many did not. They thought they would continue to make gains on overpriced worthless shares indefinetly. Those same people are about to get a lesson in the vagaries of the property market.

What leads me to believe we are in a bubble here ? Several things:

1) The 12/20 rule of investment. You should never pay more than 12 times the annual rental income for a property, and sell if it ever gets to 20. For example, if a 2 bedroom flat rents here for max £350, that is £4200 in a year and £50,400 over twelve years. Where can I find a nice new 3 bedroom flat for 50k ? Nowhere. Prices for such apartments have inflated to 80k or more in every town.

2) Real incomes have not increased significantly on the island. In fact we have less disposable income then before as the cost of living has risen and will continue to rise as a result of higher energy costs in the oil and gas markets. This strongly suggests that the rise in house prices is being fuelled by speculation and sentiment, as was the rise in stock prices during the CSE bubble of the late 90's. As any economist worth his salt will tell you, sentiment in markets can change very quickly. Locals simply cannot keep up with the massive rise in house prices on their incomes, so it follows naturally that they will come to a point where they simply refuse to buy, or will buy at a very high level of exposure which leaves them vulnerable to panic selling when things get tough.

3) The CSE is down in the doldrums and has been since the bubble burst. It does not make sense for the stock market to be undervalued while the property market is valued above its long-run trend. Because both are assets, that cannot be sustained. Either people are confident about the future, in which case both houses and shares should be worth a lot, or they are not confident, in which case the prices of both shares and houses should be low (this point has been plagiarized from research by Dr Andrew Oswald).

4) Property sales have declined by 29% year-on-year during the first half of 2005 CYP 442 mln compared to CYP 626 mln in 2004 during the same period, according to the Land Registry figures. I am waiting for the figures for the first half of 2006, I am sure they will be much lower.

5) Prices have risen by more than 20% a year since 2002 according to official estimates. This is not sustainable as salaries have not risen by a corresponding amount. In EVERY property market across the globe where we have seen prices
shoot up so fast, they have come down equally quickly. See the examples of England in the 70's and early 90's, Japan in 1997 and China only recently.

6) There is a presently a global property bubble in full swing of which we are a part:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displa ... id=4079027

The bubble has been caused by cheap money being lent by central banks. Until recently the Federal Reserve had borrowing rates at 2%, as did the ECB and the Bank of England. Japan has an interest rate of only 0.10%. Interest rates worldwide have now started to rise from these historically low levels, and in a year or so we will begin to feel the effects of this, namely a liquidity squeeze in asset markets, especially property.

Simon, property never goes down in value ???? Obviously you never lived through 70's property crash in England and again in the early 90's.

Andri, my intention was not to provoke a debate regarding whiners and so on. I also love Cyprus. My interests are purely economic in nature - so I will stick to this side of things, in this thread at least.
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Postby Rickers » Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:44 am

Hey Tuberider , what a great debate you started !

I am most impressed with both your arguments, and also the research that has gone into them -- this is what the Forum should be all about.

Keep it up !
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Postby twinkle » Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:23 pm

I was a property owner in the UK when the interest rate hit 14%. Thank God I had a fixed rate. I saw people around me losing their houses. It was appalling!

Have to say though that afterwards there was a huge amount of property available that had been repossessed by the banks and building societies. You could make a killing afterwards! Remember viewing a house that had all the radiators torn out, cupboards etc it was a bare shell. The previous owners had taken as much as they could before eviction.

Will the banks repossess over here though? The credit bubble in Cyprus is enormous. People are in over their eyeballs with debt!
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Postby rawk » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:26 pm

I remember the concept of "negative equity" in the UK in the 1990s. Basically house prices crashed and owners found that their mortgages were more than their property was worth!
If you had to sell, you were left in debt to the banks and building societys. Most just hung on to their properties, hoping and waiting for prices to go up again and that took many years. It caused all sorts of distortions in the market because people couldn't trade up without a loss and property supply log jammed.
The brutal truth is a property is only worth what people are prepared to pay no matter what valuation estate agents put on it.
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Postby bakala » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:28 pm

Anyone with a buisness background knows about market forces
its like the laws of physics and holds true in all cases provided there are no outside influences
examples
markets react to the laws of supply and demand

three hungery people want to buy one loaf of bread : the baker only has one loaf ( lucky baker ) normal price of bread is £0.50 per loaf, because he only has one loaf and 3 customers he raises the price to £1 or auction it to the highest bidder
human nature says that the price that will eventualy be paid for that loaf of bread will go up untill a maximum price is reached that any particular hungery man will pay for it.
The outside force that could come into play is that
the hungery people decide in advance that they will all put one pound each into a fund ( total £3 )
they each put thier names on bits of paper and place them into a hat
they draw out one piece of paper and the name on that paper buys the loaf for one pound
the two remaining hungry people take the £3 and divide it amoung themselves thus
one man has a loaf
two men have a profit
and the baker recieved a fair price for his bread
they have now created an outside influence that has upset the market forces rule.
what they have done is shift the potential profit from the man who made the bread to two hungry men who made £0.50 each. the man who bought the loaf actualy paid £ 2 for it

unknown to the hungry men
the baker was a buisness man too and had an oven full of bread ready for sale ( crafty baker )
he had influenced market forces too by creating a shortage that didnt really exist , he now sells his bread for the normal price and the two hungry men can buy 3 loaves cheaper than the man who bought one.

its like a game of cards where cheating is allowed
whoever cheats best wins most.
buying property is no different north or south of the border
when you see a villa advertised for £200000 today, thats not the value of the villa, its the asking price of the seller.
the exact value of any particular item is easy to work,
the value of ANY item is EXACTLY the price someone is prepared to pay for it, not a penny more not a penny less
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Postby bakala » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:51 pm

There is a Change in the legislation on pensions investment iin Britain this april ( 2 weeks away )
In effect
a pension fund was invested by a pensions company ( under goverment rules )
so some overrated pensions manager could in effect invest your money badly. this has been the case many times and be paid a very good salary to do it. of course his salary came out of the pension fund so in effect your money was used to pay a guy to rob you.
you were not allowed to invest your own pension fund because you were not among the goverment apporoved investors
some lazy pensuion fund managers placed huge chunks of pension fund money into building societies at low earning intereest rates and were paid huge commisions for doing so, then the people who were investing in those funds went to the building society to borrow money to buy a new hosue upgrade or whatever and borrowed thier own money that was paying thier own oppension fund a pittance in interest and paying the building society massive amounts of interest for years,
The new legislation allows for a pension fund member to have some say in where his money is invested . a loophole will be exploited where a man decides to invest his pension fund in his own house to pay off his mortgage, or invest in foriegn property EG a villa in Cyprus.
latest estimates are that over £20 billion could come onto the market in an extremly short time for investment by the owners of the money IE the pension fund members themselves
the normal working class guy may decide to invest his money abroad, evryone knows the Brits Love Cyprus
its very likely that the Cyprus property market coud atract a large chunk of that £20 billion.
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Postby rawk » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:02 pm

Hi bakala

I know the pension scheme you are talking about, its called a SIPP Self Invested Personal Pension. However, Gordon Brown, the British Chancellor has now blocked investment in foreign property as part of a SIPP plan, see the BBC news link below: -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4504200.stm

Regards

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Postby andri_cy » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:18 pm

wow....
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