Cyprus-Forum.com

[bakala]

Hi Rawk mate

the semi predictions were based on some amatuer maket research with good advice from some serious money people
one of whom deals in currency futures. they buy and sell currency sometimes a year ahead based on thier own knowledge of the money markets and foriegn economies: so i had a lot of help. in fact its based on 90% other peoples expertise

[bakala]

stuballstu
HI mate

I agree with your last post. I will soon be a guest in Cyprus hopefully for at least the next 10 years , maybe i will never leave. you see i am not afraid to admit i love the people, They dont pose a threat to anyone( except each other )
They dont have to fear anyone outside thier own borders. all their enemies live inside,
as time and generations move on the greekness and the turkishness should fade. as the past generations from greece and turkey get further into the past so the population should become more and more cypriot, which i believe is the ideal state for the people to be,

the problem is we all want the problem solving today and that solution could take a hundred years,
the only way for a solution in our lifetimes is for all the cypriots in unison to : take off their uniforms wave a fist at the sky and declare No more,,,, i am Cypriot, The major Problem is there is always someone whos personal indiviuality is more important to him than the greater good for all..and this i dont understand . can someone explain it to me ?

If it would save a single man ( any man ) from dying or from dominating another man ( any man ) into submission
you could address me as cross eyed Susan from mars, what the hells a title anyway ?



True freedom has a hidden price,
for you to have it . everyone must have it. otherwise its just a dream you hold
For if you deny it to others, someday you will wake and realise that the dream has gone with the waking

[bakala]

Scenario one

Fred and harry are farmrers living on next door farms
over the years they help each other out and often argue , but they live in comparative peace

Scenario two

Fred the greek cypriot and harry the turkish cypriot live on next door farms, evrythings ok untill fred the greek cypriot gets orders to fly a greek cypriot flag, harry the turksih cypriot gets similar orders from the turkish Cypriots
now we have two farms and two flags,

before you know it suspicions grow and the divide begins and Fred is scared that harry is gonna steal his land funnily enough harry is scared about the very same thing ,
next thing you know ......... well you know where this is going, you are all intelligent enough to know what comes next so why bother,

the only way forwrd for you guys is to join the Brotherhood of man with me





True freedom has a hidden price,
for you to have it . everyone must have it. otherwise its just a dream you hold
For if you deny it to others, someday you will wake and realise that the dream has gone with the waking

[retired2cyprus]

the person with ip address 85.12.65.33 please be very carefull

[bakala]

retired2 cyprus
i am in the process of moving to cyprus in the next few weeks
if you are prepared to offer me advice with certain things please contatc me at [email protected]
i am sure you can understand that there are a lot of things you could advise me with if you have already done what i plan to do

regards
Jim

[retired2cyprus]

Simon

Let me spell it out for you as i think you are missing something which is very important. South of the Green Line is called the Republic of Cyprus you are correct it doesn't say anything in the name which suggests any link to Greece. So why do you call yourself Greek Cypriot??? You are a Cypriot, first and foremost, all be it with Greek routes which i'm sure to assume the Greek part was many generations ago in your family.

The Northern part of the island is as we all know is called the Turkish Repubic of Northern Cyprus. This does make reference to the Turkish Cypriot Heritage of people who live there. It is not disguised in any way.

There is absolutely no mention whatsover in just the word "cypriots".

Until generations become known as "cypriots" the problems on this island will continue.

Firstly, the RoC represents the whole island and not 'the south.' We call ourselves Greek Cypriot because that is what we are. I'm sorry but that isn't going to change, not for me anyway. I am a Greek Cypriot because I talk Greek, my religion is Greek Orthodox and my culture and past is and was influenced by being Greek. I'm not going to change this, and I do not need to, to reach a solution. For example, look at Canada, that country's ethnic make-up states that 28% are of British origin and 26% (or something around there) is of French origin. They often call themselves British or French Canadians. But that does not lead them into a civil war does it? No, but why? Because they are mature enough to know their differences, but also to respect each other and feel patriotic and united, why? Because they are still both Canadian. This is how it can be on Cyprus aswell. Our differences enrich us as I have said before. What a boring world it would be if we were all the same. We don't have to forget our differences, or I don't have to forget the Greek part in Greek Cypriot, nor does Eric Dayi for example, have to forget the Turkish part in Turkish Cypriot. All that we need is for each side to respect each other's right to live in Cyprus as Cypriots, whether Greek or Turkish, and to respect human rights, the rule of law and proportional governance. Do you agree therefore that for the TCs to feel Cypriot, they should argue against the 'TRNC,' which makes reference to a Turkish state and come back to the RoC, which makes no mention of ethnicity. I do not buy the argument that they are afraid of what happened last time etc etc. I honestly feel this is an excuse by most to continue the illegalities. Greek Cypriots also heavily suffered last time, do you think we want a repeat? There is no military junta, no EOKA, no planned coup, so what is there to keep us separate anymore. 99% of people accept that enosis will never happen and I'm positive that the 1% who do will certainly not jeopardise new agreements made between GCs and TCs if they are fair - so there is no reason for the occupation to continue in my opinion.

I have only ever seen these flags in the UK outside foreign embassies, at sporting events when the country is visiting ie Cricket matches or at religous sights pertininent to that respective country.

You need to open your eyes a bit more then mate, because I see them. I do not take offence when I see them either. It does not mean anything. All it means is that, that individual is proud of his country of origin.

So why is the Greek flag flown at the crossing at Ledra, which part of Greece is that? The Turkish flag is flown at the Turkish side because the northern part could not survive without Turkey and all thought they claim independence we all know that they are not really independent. BTW I also dont agree with the flying of the Turkish flag however even you and many others tell the world that part of you island is under occupation by Turkey. What part of the Island is under the occupation of Greece?

Can you see the difference? If not i'll try and explain it in simplistic terms.

Have you ever thought that the Greek flag is flow there, perhaps out of defiance. Think about it, the Turkish army invade Cyprus, kick all GCs out of the north and call the North Turkish. So what the hell do you expect our response to be. We will obviously turn to Greece and play up being Greek, because mainland Turkey (the origin of TCs) have invaded our country. The Turkish flag is not flown simply because Turkey financially supports the 'TRNC', this is nonsense. They are flown because they feel Turkish, as the name of their state suggests - again you seem very biased on this issue. You have not considered the settlers. Only 45,000 of people living in the north are actually TCs. All the others are settlers, and they are and feel as Turkish as it gets. This is another stumbling block to the promotion of purely Cypriot, which you have not considered, as you are just considering the flags issue, which is not as important as many other issues which prevent us feeling Cypriot first. We are not under occupation from Greece, but while the Turkish army is there, it is obvious that we will try to include Greece as much as possible while the Turkish army is here. Isn't this common-sense? So again, I say, how can we forget about being Greek Cypriot when the TCs call their state 'Turkish.' The answer is we can't - because this works both ways.

The simple flying of flags is important, if memory serves me correct it was also part of the Annan plan that the flags of Turkey and Greece were not to be flown. It has a huge visual impact and pschological effect on the people who see it. The result is that Cypriots feel more Turkish or Greek than they do Cypriot.

Great post 1 problem enosis
LOL, what about the visual effect of looking at a state in the north that is called 'Turkish.' This is more telling than a flag. Do not make out that the TCs are under occupation. They are not. They want their state to continue or stealth partition through the Annan Plan. If they complained and protested and demanded the army to leave, this would put huge pressure on Turkey. But they don't.

If you look at any Cypriots you will see thier passports say "Republic of Cyprus" not Greece not Turkey. This is what your identity is. Cypriots do suffer from an identity problem which is fundamentally the one of the biggest problems of the Island.

I think you are missing the point. While the North is called Turkish, we will call ourselves Greek more, won't we? This is obvious, because this is like a retialiation towards the 'TRNC.' We cannot promote being Cypriot, until the TCs do the same. Otherwise, it is useless. Think of it this way, if all sides agreed on permanent partition, do you think the RoC will continue to be called the RoC. I don't. I think it will change its name to the Greek Republic of Cyprus (GRC). This can be avoided, the first step could be we promote being Cypriot as you say, by the TCs removing the Turkish part in their state's name. Second step could be TCs demanding the Turkish army leave. Then GCs can stop Greek interference in the Cypriot National Guard. Then we are rid of most major interferences. This could be the first steps to promote Cypriotness. Only after this could we consider the flags, because the other problems are much bigger.

[bakala]

Rawk mate could you show me a link to the page i wander around so many boards i cant find the one you mean
thanks mate

[bakala]

Rawk
contact me on email [email protected]
you maybe able to help me with advice ect

[stuballstu]

Growuptcs

Even the propaganda they threw in the papers all these years, they repeated the same smokescreen words that the Turkish people fell for.
Thats the first problem that has to get fixed first or theres no reason to move on. Then we can act like human beings.

You have hit the nail on the had with your post on the propoganda, however to take that a stage further you have to agree that both sides use the media for their own purposes. The ROC government is every bit as guilty as the Turkish government. It happens all the time, it wasnt so long ago that the British Prime minister used the media to gain public support on the issue of Iraq. Governments use medias to justify their policies happens in most democratic countries.

So to get past any issue, you have to dissect every aspect. The aspect of making over 200,000people refugees, without any restitution from back then, shows me and the EU that they really don't care about anyone but themselves. I call it selfishness, no matter what happened pre 1974.

The Turkish view their "intervension" as legal because of the 1960 agreements. The refugees, unfortunately, are a bi-product of war. It doesn't mean they are selfish as without their intervention TC's would have been wiped out during the quest for Enosis.

Bakala made a very good post regards Turkish troops

Its obvious that the occupation force as you call it or the protective force as they call it . is a runnning sore that will never heal.
The problem is that some of the Tcs think its needed to protect them from a repeat of the pre 1974 situation, the Turkish Forces gaurantee their independance and those events pre 1974 dont exactly foster trust in either greece or Britain as Guardians , so i can understand their reluctance to let them go.

As for Turkish forces on Cyprus being an aggresive strategic value i doubt its that much of an asset, its certainly more expensive to keep troops on Cyprus than the Turkish mainland, supplies have to be maintained,
mainlandTurkey has a large standing Army, thats a sure sign of insecurity, I believe that the forces stationed on Cyprus are a defensive force, the extra 40 miles added to the strike reach of a modern military nation like Turkey doesent seem worth the extra cost of keeping such a comparitively large force on Cyprus force for offensive reasons,

The Turkish Cypriot people are Haunted by the same fear as the Jews from 1930 to 1945, The jews keep a very large and aggressive standing army to make sure ( thier own words ) that next time its someone elses Holocaust weve had ours

The Turkish forces on Cyprus remain welcome for the same reason, there will be no repeat of 1960 to 1974 while they are there, Thats the way they see it

Anyone looking at the cheapest map can see one thing, The island does have one strategic value, It dominates the western passage to the canal, the southern coast of Turkey also has a dominent position in relation to the canal therefore Maybe if there is a strategic value to Turkey, its to deny dominanace to any other nation,

Politicaly with forces there Turkey wields a pretty big stick in Europe, perhaps its a bargaining chip they havent played yet . but everyone is aware they have it, Turkey says it was legal for it to land forces there under the 1960 treaty, They plead that it was a rescue force and landed to gaurantee the existance of the Turkish Cypriots not their independance, and as far as Turkey are concerned the forces will remain for that reason.
I canno forsee in the near future any reason for the Turkish Cypriot Goverment to ask them to leave, The forces will of course bring valuable revenue to the north, even the poorest paid troops like a beer and a good night out,
Their presence,

The island of Cyprus is at the mercy of an age old emotion thats made standing armies nessesary throughout the world and through all of history its called fear,

Sometimes that fear is encouraged by the people who hold the strings of power because they have most to loose, the guy who mans the guns at night watch can only loose his life, to the man holding the strings this is of little value.

And the man who holds the strings makes the common people pay to keep that standing army there, The man who holds the strings also has another good reason to have a standing army, it must always be big enough to maintain that power in the same hands, and when the people become rebellious the first thing to do is get them at each others throats, that way he only has to deal with half a problem, does all this sound familiar ?

its a damn shame because unless you change the system and get leaders who are of the people and for the people you will never have control over your own destiny
and while we all identify with Turkey or Greece the island will remain divided because there are no real Cypriots they have all become either Greek cypriots or Turkish Cypriots,

They have a case for that, no denying it, but if they are a nation(a superpower), shouldnt they be great, being a problem solver. They shouldn't of let the problem go on for more than 2 years back in 74. They knew time would only make things more difficult, but thats what they planned all along.

As time goes on if you look at Turkey as a country it is becoming less and less run by the military. The military in Turkey had a huge say on how the country was run and how decisions were being made. Through the years this is changing and the powers of the military in decision making is somewhat diluted now to what it used to be.

Although its back to the blame culture that exists. Cypriots always want to blame someone else. You blame Turkey but make no mention of Enosis.

[bakala]

stuballstu
hi mate
Though it sounds a bit distastefull the referece to the refugees being a bi-product of war is pretty accurate and the way the polititions regard people as human resources only confirms you are right.
when the guys in power do the deals they talk in terms of gains and losses
a parcel of territory here traded for a few more votes there is pretty much the way of things
currently both sides of the border vote in power people who start out with great ideals and promisses but soon get corrupted by the under the counter brown bag merchants
The principles of even the best politicions has a price

Sad isint it