Cyprus-Forum.com

[stuballstu]

Simon

Let me spell it out for you as i think you are missing something which is very important. South of the Green Line is called the Republic of Cyprus you are correct it doesn't say anything in the name which suggests any link to Greece. So why do you call yourself Greek Cypriot??? You are a Cypriot, first and foremost, all be it with Greek routes which i'm sure to assume the Greek part was many generations ago in your family.

The Northern part of the island is as we all know is called the Turkish Repubic of Northern Cyprus. This does make reference to the Turkish Cypriot Heritage of people who live there. It is not disguised in any way.

There is absolutely no mention whatsover in just the word "cypriots".

Until generations become known as "cypriots" the problems on this island will continue.

The flags are a minor issue because all it shows is a recognition of your heritage. In Britain, I see Pakastani, Indian, American flags etc, but this does not mean they want to take over the country - nor does it mean they do not feel patriotic towards Britain also. It is laughable is a sense that you say, how can people feel Cypriot with the Greek flags, BUT HOW THE HELL CAN PEOPLE FEEL CYPRIOT WHEN ONE PART OF CYPRUS IS CALLED TURKISH AND WITH 40,000 TURKISH TROOPS IN CYPRUS. The issue is the occupation. What does it matter if you can't see the troops, you know that they are there. This seems a biased view to take.[/quote]
I have only ever seen these flags in the UK outside foreign embassies, at sporting events when the country is visiting ie Cricket matches or at religous sights pertininent to that respective country.

So why is the Greek flag flown at the crossing at Ledra, which part of Greece is that? The Turkish flag is flown at the Turkish side because the northern part could not survive without Turkey and all thought they claim independence we all know that they are not really independent. BTW I also dont agree with the flying of the Turkish flag however even you and many others tell the world that part of you island is under occupation by Turkey. What part of the Island is under the occupation of Greece?

Can you see the difference? If not i'll try and explain it in simplistic terms.

The Northern part is under "occupation" and that occupier flies its flag, regardless of heritage.

The Southern part is an independent state, legally recognised as such, but flies the flag of another country more than it does it own.

I cant make it any simpler than that. This is one of the reasons you call yourself Greek Cypriot and not Cypriot.

The simple flying of flags is important, if memory serves me correct it was also part of the Annan plan that the flags of Turkey and Greece were not to be flown. It has a huge visual impact and pschological effect on the people who see it. The result is that Cypriots feel more Turkish or Greek than they do Cypriot.

You are misunderstanding me. I am arguing against anyone removing their identity. It seems to be you that is advocating this. I am merely pointing out that if you support this view, your first aim should be to prevent TCs and illegal settlers calling any part of Cyprus Turkish. Surely this is just common-sense?.[/quote]

If you look at any Cypriots you will see thier passports say "Republic of Cyprus" not Greece not Turkey. This is what your identity is. Cypriots do suffer from an identity problem which is fundamentally the one of the biggest problems of the Island.

[Alexis]

Alexis,

Annan plan is not a lot different than your ideals. Look you have to be realistic, every day that passes makes this problem more and more difficult to solve. For example in the Annnan plan you had Omorfo, I am not sure this region will be offered to you in the next phase of the negotiations. There are millions of pounds worth of investments planned there now. This is the norm in most parts of the north now.

My point is that if your Mr Papadopulous keeps dragging his feet there will be no land left for GC's to build on.

Whatever happens, whatever you may think the next offer from the UN or EU or USA or maybe UK or even Russia may be, it isn't gonna be a lot more different than what is on the table now. WAKE UP.

Hi mrfromng,

Thanks for your reply. You are quite right, what I propose is not altogether different from the Annan Plan, and as I have said many times before on this forum, I was never that adamantly opposed to the plan.
It is interesting that you refer to the territorial adjustments in the annan Plan. I am actually not that bothered where the border separating the two federated states lies in the event of a settlement. What matters to me (and quite a few GCs I know) more is the degree to which the country is unified. I would not mind at all if Omorfo remained in the TC zone so long as I as GC could up and move there if I so wished, especially if I was a refugee from there. Of course things like voting rights would need to be discussed, such as to what degree I as a GC can have voting rights within the TC zone. My belief is, that at a local level, GCs should have rights, but that at a federal level they should exercise rights as a GC separate from TCs. This is to ensure that issues which are local to an area can be decided upon by all that area's residents. Of course there can be exceptions to this, for instance policing and education, but for matters such as health, transport, energy, waste disposal, ones in which there is no sensitivity between the communities (e.g. I don't care if my doctor is TC or GC as long as they cure me of my illness), all residents should be able to decide.
I, of course, am no constitutional expert, but I believe a fair system can be put in place.
This has a fundamentally different take to the Annan Plan although incorporates much of what is in the plan already. I think it is essential that TCs have a part of the country they can think of as their own, but this has to be offset with provisions to allow GCs to have involvement in this zone if they so wish. And of course the same would apply in equal measure to the GC zone.

[twinkle]

Simon

Let me spell it out for you as i think you are missing something which is very important. South of the Green Line is called the Republic of Cyprus you are correct it doesn't say anything in the name which suggests any link to Greece. So why do you call yourself Greek Cypriot??? You are a Cypriot, first and foremost, all be it with Greek routes which i'm sure to assume the Greek part was many generations ago in your family.

The Northern part of the island is as we all know is called the Turkish Repubic of Northern Cyprus. This does make reference to the Turkish Cypriot Heritage of people who live there. It is not disguised in any way.

There is absolutely no mention whatsover in just the word "cypriots".

Until generations become known as "cypriots" the problems on this island will continue.

The flags are a minor issue because all it shows is a recognition of your heritage. In Britain, I see Pakastani, Indian, American flags etc, but this does not mean they want to take over the country - nor does it mean they do not feel patriotic towards Britain also. It is laughable is a sense that you say, how can people feel Cypriot with the Greek flags, BUT HOW THE HELL CAN PEOPLE FEEL CYPRIOT WHEN ONE PART OF CYPRUS IS CALLED TURKISH AND WITH 40,000 TURKISH TROOPS IN CYPRUS. The issue is the occupation. What does it matter if you can't see the troops, you know that they are there. This seems a biased view to take.

I have only ever seen these flags in the UK outside foreign embassies, at sporting events when the country is visiting ie Cricket matches or at religous sights pertininent to that respective country.

So why is the Greek flag flown at the crossing at Ledra, which part of Greece is that? The Turkish flag is flown at the Turkish side because the northern part could not survive without Turkey and all thought they claim independence we all know that they are not really independent. BTW I also dont agree with the flying of the Turkish flag however even you and many others tell the world that part of you island is under occupation by Turkey. What part of the Island is under the occupation of Greece?

Can you see the difference? If not i'll try and explain it in simplistic terms.

The Northern part is under "occupation" and that occupier flies its flag, regardless of heritage.

The Southern part is an independent state, legally recognised as such, but flies the flag of another country more than it does it own.

I cant make it any simpler than that. This is one of the reasons you call yourself Greek Cypriot and not Cypriot.

The simple flying of flags is important, if memory serves me correct it was also part of the Annan plan that the flags of Turkey and Greece were not to be flown. It has a huge visual impact and pschological effect on the people who see it. The result is that Cypriots feel more Turkish or Greek than they do Cypriot.

You are misunderstanding me. I am arguing against anyone removing their identity. It seems to be you that is advocating this. I am merely pointing out that if you support this view, your first aim should be to prevent TCs and illegal settlers calling any part of Cyprus Turkish. Surely this is just common-sense?.[/quote]

If you look at any Cypriots you will see thier passports say "Republic of Cyprus" not Greece not Turkey. This is what your identity is. Cypriots do suffer from an identity problem which is fundamentally the one of the biggest problems of the Island.[/quote]

Exactly, why can't we be proud with who we are? Is is embarassing to be seen as only Cypriot?

[MR-from-NG]

Thanks Alexis,

Its a shame you are the voice of the minority. It is clear from your posts that you are looking at the Cyprus problem more realistically than your statesmen. Well done to you and those who think like you.

[bakala]

Simon mate
Dont forget i am on the side of all true Cypriots
your post really made me do a bit of a rethink you was winning me over untill the last paragraph when you seemed intent on driving all before you

Its obvious that the occupation force as you call it or the protective force as they call it . is a runnning sore that will never heal.
The problem is that some of the Tcs think its needed to protect them from a repeat of the pre 1974 situation, the Turkish Forces gaurantee their independance and those events pre 1974 dont exactly foster trust in either greece or Britain as Guardians , so i can understand their reluctance to let them go.

As for Turkish forces on Cyprus being an aggresive strategic value i doubt its that much of an asset, its certainly more expensive to keep troops on Cyprus than the Turkish mainland, supplies have to be maintained,
mainlandTurkey has a large standing Army, thats a sure sign of insecurity, I believe that the forces stationed on Cyprus are a defensive force, the extra 40 miles added to the strike reach of a modern military nation like Turkey doesent seem worth the extra cost of keeping such a comparitively large force on Cyprus force for offensive reasons,

The Turkish Cypriot people are Haunted by the same fear as the Jews from 1930 to 1945, The jews keep a very large and aggressive standing army to make sure ( thier own words ) that next time its someone elses Holocaust weve had ours

The Turkish forces on Cyprus remain welcome for the same reason, there will be no repeat of 1960 to 1974 while they are there, Thats the way they see it

Anyone looking at the cheapest map can see one thing, The island does have one strategic value, It dominates the western passage to the canal, the southern coast of Turkey also has a dominent position in relation to the canal therefore Maybe if there is a strategic value to Turkey, its to deny dominanace to any other nation,

Politicaly with forces there Turkey wields a pretty big stick in Europe, perhaps its a bargaining chip they havent played yet . but everyone is aware they have it, Turkey says it was legal for it to land forces there under the 1960 treaty, They plead that it was a rescue force and landed to gaurantee the existance of the Turkish Cypriots not their independance, and as far as Turkey are concerned the forces will remain for that reason.
I canno forsee in the near future any reason for the Turkish Cypriot Goverment to ask them to leave, The forces will of course bring valuable revenue to the north, even the poorest paid troops like a beer and a good night out,
Their presence,

The island of Cyprus is at the mercy of an age old emotion thats made standing armies nessesary throughout the world and through all of history its called fear,

Sometimes that fear is encouraged by the people who hold the strings of power because they have most to loose, the guy who mans the guns at night watch can only loose his life, to the man holding the strings this is of little value.

And the man who holds the strings makes the common people pay to keep that standing army there, The man who holds the strings also has another good reason to have a standing army, it must always be big enough to maintain that power in the same hands, and when the people become rebellious the first thing to do is get them at each others throats, that way he only has to deal with half a problem, does all this sound familiar ?

its a damn shame because unless you change the system and get leaders who are of the people and for the people you will never have control over your own destiny
and while we all identify with Turkey or Greece the island will remain divided because there are no real Cypriots they have all become either Greek cypriots or Turkish Cypriots,

the one thing that is very apparent
the guy who says i am prepared to give something up to meet you half way, he is a rare commodity indeed
there are a few read them avidly
rawk, Alexis, mrfromng and rolo when hes calm you too Simon when you hold onto reason.

Todays political power mongers stand eyeball to eyeball, Who gains what if they make a settlement of some kind, one of them may have to sacrifice a bit of power, thats not on the table to be negotiated sorry

Perhaps we have to wait for this generation who talk and reason to grow up and hopefully rise to a place of power and influence before there is fundemental change.


True freedom has a hidden price,
for you to have it . everyone must have it. otherwise its just a dream you hold
For if you deny it to others, someday you will wake and realise that the dream has gone with the waking

[twinkle]

Bakala, did you get my PM?

[bakala]

yes twinkle i did thank you
and it inspired another crappy poem
look on the board in two ticks

[bakala]

For all the guys of reason and tolerance on the Cyprus peace board


Children of the stars

We dip a pen in blackest ink, and hold that small slim pole
For somewhere deep inside us all, lies a poet’s feeling soul
Where do we find those golden words that mean so much to you
To open up our private hearts, for all of us to view

The colours of my heart are there, for all of you to see
With subtle shades and summer hues, you see the inner me
Within us all a star child, from the big bang we did come
One hundred billion atoms, whiz around to make life hum

We are just carbon beings, made from that star child dust
But where the hell did rage come from, and animal like lust
How is it that I have, just the same as you
The capacity for pity, and emotion to be blue

From somewhere came a lover’s heart, what star gave us that
I feel the hand of a superman giving me a pat
You are more than just a star child, just the same as me
For you have a spirit too, with no atoms there to see

I feel the hand of a superman, makes us what we are
The children of a Creative God who created every star
If you want to know where you came from, don’t just wonder why
Go outside on a starlit night and look up at the sky

Bakala
16/03/006




True freedom has a hidden price,
for you to have it . everyone must have it. otherwise its just a dream you hold
For if you deny it to others, someday you will wake and realise that the dream has gone with the waking
















/

[twinkle]

You have talent and style and a heart of gold.
Thank you for the poem just told.

Nice one, bakala. Some light relief in a heavy discussion. Is this one of the longest threads yet???

[bakala]

Another Hidden poet Twinkles on this board
is it real, a him or her, i wonder, very bold