Cyprus-Forum.com

[rolo]

Alexis

thanx for your reasoned response -


what i meant by partial enosis, was a taksim/ or partition whereby the greek cypriot part of a partitioned Cyprus could gain Enosis with no objection from tcs.

[Alexis]

Hi rolo,

No problem, thanks for your reasoned responses as well.

what i meant by partial enosis, was a taksim/ or partition whereby the greek cypriot part of a partitioned Cyprus could gain Enosis with no objection from tcs.

Wasn't this the problem all along though. Even if a partition was agreed along the lines of population or land ownership (i.e. 80:20 split) which some GCs are advocating now, wouldn't it still mean the mass movement of people?
Also, whilst some might argue that both communities achieve what they want, couldn't the GCs simply argue that they had political dominance overall anyhow, and that had a referendum taken place Enosis could be achieved peacefully anyway with no forced movement of peoples? Of course this would have forced the TCs to live under Greek administration, which was the side of the coin the GCs couldn't understand. They couldn't see that to TCs being forced to join with Greece was anathema to them. Wouldn't you agree though that partition (even a fair one) benefitted the TC community much more given the circumstances?
Every way you look at it, there was no way partition would have been agreed upon without some sort of violence breaking out. Similarly I don't think Enosis would have been peaceful either for obvious reasons.

[rolo]

Alexsis

At the time I believe tcs would have accepted an 80/20 split, and I do seem to remember the turks proposing something on those lines regarding the Karpaz region, and it being rejected, maybe I am wrong but I do remember something like that.

I also agree that the turks would have benefited more from partition because as the minority, living behind a border they would have felt more secure than living in villages or enclaves surrounded by gcs constantly vulnerable to the types of attack which no-one (I hope) denies did take place.

My personal belief is that had partition happened then it would have been the end of the Cyprus Problem for good. However I appreciate that some gcs may have seen the “tc zone” as a landing post for mainland turkish troops to assemble a mighty military presence from where they could launch a further attack to take all of Cyprus. But the turks always did have that ability by air and or sea. The same could have been said about a Greek mainland force.



Could such a partition have been possible without violence?
Perhaps I have more faith in Cypriot common sense than most, but had it been done in an amicable manner overseen by neutrals then why not? History shows however that non-partition then certainly did precede violence, together with possibly an even greater movement of people.

Please forgive me if you think I am trying to oversimplify things, but I cant help believing that where you have two fighting children or two fighting gangs the best way to stop them fighting is to separate them. They were told off in 60 63 67 and still they didn’t stop.

At least for the past forty years they have stopped killing each other, even at an extremely high cost of life and population movement.

I have no idea what it must have been like for gcs knowing that tens of thousands of turkish soldiers were coming or watching my loved ones being used and abused by thug soldiers, but I spent six months in Cyprus in 1966 and witnessed things which did terrify me.

I have had relatives murdered by Grivas for absolutely nothing. At least that murdering by whichever side has stopped, and people of cyprus on both sides of the line do not live with the fear of troops or semi-militia kicking down their doors and spraying bullets. They can walk about freely without being shot. Greek Cypriots lived with this fear in 74 and tcs lived with it for 14 before, and you can say that gcs lived under similar oppression for hundreds of years of ottoman rule. At least it has stopped.

Some will say

“Yeah it would have stopped if we kicked out the tcs when we had the chance or we should have killed them all”, well when that point nears we have no other option than war, and that’s what did happen.


we could and should have lived together as brothers and sisters, we didnt and we paid a big price for our mistakes. Cyprus was one example of giving some kind of democracy to people who never fully understood nor appreciated it.

[cypezokyli]

cypezokyli


i appologise i thought you were quoting names of provocateurs............

so the names you quoted are the names of tcs who believed that tc and gc should live together, but were killed by tc terrorists.

well cypezokyli i too believe that tc and gc can live together, however not our present day generations, or probably even the next. To put us back together again now and tell us to forget that i murdered your grandfather or that you murdered my mother and you now live on my land, and expect us to kiss and make up is stretching human kindness a bit.

but i do look forward to being able to share cultures, languages, friendships.....................

unfortunately i dont think it can happen in our lifetime. Hopefully it will evolve naturally, but i dont think we can push it upon people who are not yet ready for it................just read some of the hate filled posts by both sides on this site.

a few nutters have spoilt it for all cypriots - i think we know that -
btw when i do come across the odd tc nationist claiming this or that i do speak up for the vast majority of good gcs.

now you can go to the tc gossip places you visit and mention those names, and tell us what the gossip is about those people

allow me to suggest to you a book not about politics but about people : "the oysters that lost their pearls" by sevgül uludag . it has been published in turkish and greek and soon in english. i dont know, when - it could be that it is already out. you can get a different opnion about people not being able to live together. give it a try.

personally, i just spend the weekend with a tc that i met online. he invited us, and we spent the night at his place (he lives in another city in germany). believe me i would have been reluctant to go to someone place, whom i never met in person before, but he being a cypriot (excuse me a tc) i had no worries.
does that make the rule ? ofcource not. but it for sure severely challanges the "you killed by fathers - we cannot live together" rule. and believe me i ll do whatever i can to work against this rule. as well as the "well things turned like that - what can we do about it ?" rule.

[Alexis]

At the time I believe tcs would have accepted an 80/20 split, and I do seem to remember the turks proposing something on those lines regarding the Karpaz region, and it being rejected, maybe I am wrong but I do remember something like that.

Doesn't this also back up what I said before about what partition means to GCs. Let's imagine the partition scenario. To the TC who is forced to move North, on the one hand they have to move, but they move to a region of the country where only TCs live. For the GC, they have to move, and yes they move somewhere where only GCs live, but before they were probably living somewhere where very few TCs lived anyway. So how does the GC benefit from partition? Back then it was a no-brainer, partition was the Turkish solution. So we can always sit back now and say with hindsight 'why was that offer rejected?'.

I also agree that the turks would have benefited more from partition because as the minority, living behind a border they would have felt more secure than living in villages or enclaves surrounded by gcs constantly vulnerable to the types of attack which no-one (I hope) denies did take place.

Ok agreed, but I hope you will at least realise that unrest only erupted after the parliament broke down in Dec 1963, and that before that these attacks were not happening. Before 1963, the fact that TCs were spread around the country is small quarters or communities was hardly the fault of the GCs. Also, bear in mind the violence was two-way and that I too have relatives (quite distant ones admittedly) who were killed during this time (1960s).

My personal belief is that had partition happened then it would have been the end of the Cyprus Problem for good. However I appreciate that some gcs may have seen the “tc zone” as a landing post for mainland turkish troops to assemble a mighty military presence from where they could launch a further attack to take all of Cyprus. But the turks always did have that ability by air and or sea. The same could have been said about a Greek mainland force.

Pretty much agree here, both Turkey and Greece played their roles at this time. Again, partition may have solved the problem, but how would you get the GCs to agree?

Could such a partition have been possible without violence?
Perhaps I have more faith in Cypriot common sense than most, but had it been done in an amicable manner overseen by neutrals then why not? History shows however that non-partition then certainly did precede violence, together with possibly an even greater movement of people.

Sure, but again, bear in mind that violence only erupted at the point when each side started perceiving the other as acting unfairly. The TCs were afraid the GCs would use their majority power to make Enosis a reality. GCs were convinced that the TCs were after their own state. All it took was violent act to make it seem that both of these things were the case all along.

I can see what you say about partition, but human nature necessarily dictates that this will be a difficult process. The final exchange of populations in 1923 was overseen by the League of Nations and was pulled off (once agreed) with relatively little violence, but everyone agrees it was a terrible experience for all involved.

Please forgive me if you think I am trying to oversimplify things, but I cant help believing that where you have two fighting children or two fighting gangs the best way to stop them fighting is to separate them. They were told off in 60 63 67 and still they didn’t stop.

At least for the past forty years they have stopped killing each other, even at an extremely high cost of life and population movement.

I have no idea what it must have been like for gcs knowing that tens of thousands of turkish soldiers were coming or watching my loved ones being used and abused by thug soldiers, but I spent six months in Cyprus in 1966 and witnessed things which did terrify me.

I have had relatives murdered by Grivas for absolutely nothing. At least that murdering by whichever side has stopped, and people of cyprus on both sides of the line do not live with the fear of troops or semi-militia kicking down their doors and spraying bullets. They can walk about freely without being shot. Greek Cypriots lived with this fear in 74 and tcs lived with it for 14 before, and you can say that gcs lived under similar oppression for hundreds of years of ottoman rule. At least it has stopped.

Yes, you are right, we GCs forget that with some notable exceptions, few people have died as a result of this conflict since 1974. This is of course a good thing, but the tension has not disappeared. The hatred and resentment between the two communities is still there. The Turkish Army is still there in the sort of numbers which are clearly not necessary. The embargoes on the north still exist and up until 2003 there was still no freedom of movement.

Some will say

“Yeah it would have stopped if we kicked out the tcs when we had the chance or we should have killed them all”, well when that point nears we have no other option than war, and that’s what did happen.

I would say that very few people would say that, both now and even in the 1960s. What some GCs might naively say is, violence would never have happened if Cyprus had voted to be a part of Greece in 1960.
Remember, like all conflicts, the violence only started when social injustices start being perceived. Up until that point it was just tension. I think it is extremely unfair to say most GCs supported the elimination of TCs from Cyprus. That's not to say that some didn't want this to happen. This is why it annoys some GCs so much when we read the kind of posts on this forum that state we got what we deserved in 1974 because we were somehow a Nazi state in the 1960s hellbent on the elimination of TCs from Cyprus. We of course should acknowledge that atrocities did happen.

we could and should have lived together as brothers and sisters, we didnt and we paid a big price for our mistakes. Cyprus was one example of giving some kind of democracy to people who never fully understood nor appreciated it.

Here we agree. But perhaps we still can live that way. This is the 21st century for heaven's sake. Back in the 1960s Cypriotswere much poorer, lived in villages and were easily influenced by propaganda. Things have changed, why perpetuate the hate of yesteryear when we casn move on?

[retired2cyprus]

peace in out time..........

[theresa]

Having lived in the North for the last 3 years I have talked to many turkish Cypriots. Most say I am CYPRIOT not turkish or greek! I wish i knew the answer but for those who condemn the selling off of Greek land , many many Turkish cypriots condem this too!
The home buyers pressure group are in fact compaining about the builders that are ripping off the buyers with shoddy work! The greedy brits are being ripped off left right and centre - fair play maybe for buying land and villas that belong to Greek Cypriots! But it must surely be a two way thing, cant the Turkish Cypriots have their lands back too? Much of which was in prime position of Paphos and the like? And I understand that THEY cant do anything until the SOLUTION is agreed which the Greek cyps keep putting off?
Tess

[Michael]

But my dear Theresa , they can. Dont you read the newspaper? "Turkish Cypriot Man back to his land". Are you happy? So far its one way traffic. Do you understand?

[theresa]

No Michael I am not happy - in an ideal world everyone would have their land back and everyone would live together again. (did they ever - happily??) All I know is what I am told' - yes I saw that a Turkish Cypriot got some land back - but what about the man who 'owns' Larnaca airport? He was told that he could get compensation after the solution???
Tess
PS I am here to listen and learn !!!

[rolo]

Here we agree. But perhaps we still can live that way. This is the 21st century for heaven's sake. Back in the 1960s Cypriotswere much poorer, lived in villages and were easily influenced by propaganda. Things have changed, why perpetuate the hate of yesteryear when we casn move on?

Spot on.

cypriots in the sixties (and i am not being rude) were mainly ignorant uneducated simple people living off the land, open to the propoganda of a few so called leaders........................these leaders in turn stood to make fortunes.

Today we have two problems

profit - desire

many on both sides have made big bucks out of what has happened, and they are now influencial with political clout, but more importantly there must be the desire for integration. We can not live together simply by being put together, we can only live together by wanting to live together.

here in the uk we have no problem, my generation lives side by side, many as best friends, and with many g t intermarriages. The present day teenagers and those in their twenties havent got a clue about the sixties or earlier and think the elder generations are pathetic. If we took all the present day london youths and there must be more than 500 000 of them and put them on Cyprus there may be a chance, but from the indoctrinated youth visiting london, both g and t i see very little tollerance with even less desire to live together.

perhaps the key may be to teach our children to understand the otherside's grief before we go on and on about our own. here i must admit i have failed, i tell my kids about our grief and give less explanation to the gc grief, and how gcs have suffered also.

.but of course the real issue now is land and who owns what and where. To be honest i havent been to the south post 74 where my parents lands are, but ive been told by tcs who have, that there is little point since after 40 yrs it is unrecognisable, and the deeds which i hold are of little use. they simply say "half a plot in such n such village where there is one walnut and two lemon trees" or "one third of a plot next to a well".

I would love to return and build but i bet theyve even dug up the lemon trees so i wouldnt even know my own land if i stood on it.

The problems have now moved on and become more entangled, but somewhere we must draw a line and forget the past, the longer we leave it the worse it will become. there were once gcs and tcs but from my last visit i have seen a new type of c, the british cypriot.
it seems that the wheels on the cyprus bus which have gone round and round for centuries are still turning. Now, i hear massive Isreali and Arab investment is in the planning as well.

it is and i guess always has been a "cyprus thing"