Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

there is no doubt that the church and religion has been important part of our culture. there s also no reason why they should have a say in law-making, education or politics.

the US, is a different example imo. true, state and church are different...but having people voting for a president bc he publicly sais : i believe in god!!!! ....and it might not be the church, but still there exists a manipulation of religious feelings from politics. its kind of extreme backward thinking for such a modern society imo.

[Piratis]

Most parts of the USA are at least as conservative as Cyprus.

"In God we trust" is in fact printed on US money.

[Michael]

Mike, while you are technically correct, in that religious figures sit in the house of lords, they do not have influence in the all important upper chamber, and it would be folly to suggest they have any discernable impact on policy or procedure.

anyway, I cast pearls to swine, as usual. Bad habit.

I'm bored now, thanks for sending me to sleep, Mr Boring.

I think you’re more than capable of sending yourself to sleep. Yes I think your Turkish boyfriends would look quite fetching with a pearl necklace. They do like a nice English Peal Necklace.

[pumpernickle]

nice image.

bet you went to bed with that one on your mind. horrid.

[maewing]

cypezokyli

True, only God knows why people voted for Bush, I am pretty certain it is not because he said he believed in God. I think the extent to which religion has influence on the country is in the powerful lobbyists; however, this is how it is in any democracy--no matter how flawed. Influence is there through the vote and political pressure.

The issue I raise for Cyprus is that its religions are part of its identity--particularly that of Orthodox since it was the world's first Orthodox (and there for first Christian) country. This is not a token for tourism but rather a statement about the place, the people and the culture. I worry that France and Germany (as well as some of the other EU members) being failures at world domination and emperialism, will use EU for this purpose politically. I don't believe that they are targeting Orthodoxy alone but rather anything which would resist their very Western views of life (which would have them believe, for example, that Cypriots are backwards because they do not like video games.)

Nonetheless, if you are a believer, it is the only thing that is important. Unlike Protestantism and Roman Catholocism (which admit this) the affairs of this world, apart from their effects on the Church, are not important for pious Orthodox. For most of us (the less pious), more Western-oriented and Orthodox by name only, of course, it is but it should not be.

[cypezokyli]

The issue I raise for Cyprus is that its religions are part of its identity--particularly that of Orthodox since it was the world's first Orthodox (and there for first Christian) country.

ehm, as far as i know the first nation to accept officially christianity, was armenia.and blieve me, they are proud of it! i believe they are also orthodox.

true , religion is part of our identity. and i am in favor of keeping customs and traditions irrespective of being religious or not. but, when a religious idea is backward, then i dont really care about "our identity".

as for your statement orthodox - therefore christian, i am not going to discuss. i am not religious, but i am sure that all christians believe they are right.

I worry that France and Germany (as well as some of the other EU members) being failures at world domination and emperialism, will use EU for this purpose politically. I don't believe that they are targeting Orthodoxy alone but rather anything which would resist their very Western views of life (which would have them believe, for example, that Cypriots are backwards because they do not like video games.)

jesus... well u ve just proven you are a real cyprtiot
i ll be honest with you, such a conspiracy theory i ve never heard before. i live in germany, and believe the last thing they would care would be to target us or anybody else, when it comes to religious matters.
to be more honest, i dont mind some western influence when it comes to the relationship with religion.
and i am not talking about video games. i am talking about priests, having a say, what is taught in schools, priests say anyone who votes yes will go to hell, priests making protest when we are forced to vote a european law considering homosexuals. these are my problems with the church, and in that, i really admire both the french an the germans ..

Nonetheless, if you are a believer, it is the only thing that is important. Unlike Protestantism and Roman Catholocism (which admit this) the affairs of this world, apart from their effects on the Church, are not important for pious Orthodox. For most of us (the less pious), more Western-oriented and Orthodox by name only, of course, it is but it should not be.

didnt really get what you mean here...sorry
as i told you i dont know, and its not important to me which christian is more "right", even though from what i saw up to now the protestants are really way more progressive than any other christians.
and as far as i know, our patriarch with the last pope, hasvesolved the "religious" difference that we have with the catholics. and if i am not mistaken again, they declared the schism as wrong...but ofcource the reasons that existed back then for them to split, still exist today... $$$

[maewing]

Dear cypezokyli,

Thank you for your comments, but I am confused. Why is it that every stream seems to attract someone with more negative than positive things to say and for this stream you seem to be that person? This is a long response, but I hope you will read it.

First, "as far as you know" is apparently not very far. Cyprus IS the first Christian country and as a Cypriot it is appalling that you do not know this of your own history. To demonstrate this let's consider some references:

Here one can find Cyprus as visited by St Paul between 41 and 50 AD (at the time the king was converted) in a discussion of atheism--so you do not question the source:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/c ... ian_nt.htm

If this is not sufficient for you, you may find the discussion of Cyprus being converted in the Bible itself by these same Apostles: Acts 13:4-13

Finally, you may find the discussion of Armenians being converted during the 4th century (300 years later!) in a book by an Armenian historian:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/104/55.0.html


Next, try visiting Paphos (where St Paul preached) if you still have your doubts about your own history. Alternatively, you might visit St Lazarus' relics in the Church of St Lazarus in Larnaca (you know that town, do you not?) and there perhaps someone (even a tourist) might explain that he died in the first century AS BISHOP OF LARNACA--that is, in an Orthodox country!

The first Gentile convert was an Ethiopian eunuch converted by St Philip. The first Church was at Antioch (where Pentecost took place). The next Church was in Alexandria. And the first king to convert his country was in Cyprus--know these facts and you can extend the bounds of "as far as you know".

Secondly, you continue to twist what I've said. My reference to France and Germany is with respect to specific events and specific actions taken by their representatives within the European Union to remove religious identity from newly joining countries (not Italy, but Greece and Cyprus, for example)--particularly within the Constitution, drafted by a Frenchman.

How average French and Germans feel about Christianity (as well as yourself) is irrelevant--they could even be Orthodox for that matter. What matters is the actions taken on an official level--such as requesting Greece to remove religious references from its constitution. Why should those who believe be forced to do what those who do not advocate? If people in Greece or Cyprus or Turkey vote on matters because of their beliefs (which is the case everywhere voting takes place in the world, in fact) what does it matter to them? As long as their economies run well and there is no political upheaval and violations of human rights in the process (which is more than can be said about France), why should they care?

Finally, the fact that you do not understand the reference to "believer" indicates that you truly are not religious (as you say): and even if you were baptized you simply never bothered to understand the religion of your parents or bothered to explore it (which by definition makes you not actually Orthodox). This is not a judgement but an admonishing and statement of fact; it is impossible to explore Orthodoxy truly as a baptized Orthodox and not believe, otherwise you forsake baptism.

This is sad because as a Cypriot you have an absolute goldmine in your backyard! Do you know the treasures of Orthodox spirituality you have in your own country? You have pieces of the Cross (Stavravouni, the Church of the Cross in Lefkara) you have elders (Bishop Athanasius of Limassol, Abbot Athanasius of Stavravouni, Rev. Sophronious of Larnaca...) you have relics (as I've mentioned), you can worship freely and you have truly believing people! But above all these earthly things, you have God's grace--which has protected Cyprus from countless MORE invasions and total destruction and even worse occupations than you have already suffered. How else do you think a little island in the middle of such a volatile crossroads throughout history has remained free and Orthodox?

Shame on you! Shame on you for rejecting all this and admiring instead the Western ways of France and Germany (or the US even, where I am from), who believe "anything goes". They have only a few hundred years of spiritual history, but you have almost 2000! Of course, they can let anything go over there--they have no roadmap and no blueprint with which to navigate their futures. Tell me when, even once, the Orthodox Church's influence in Cyprus has cost the life or freedom of even one Cypriot or you personally and I will show you thousands of lives and souls lost in these countries because they had no Church (or at least not Christ) at all.

Any change and anything goes seems good when your empires have crumbled, your values are borrowed, blurred and forgotten and your future has no compass but what you think of as "economic progress" (13% unemployment in Germany--that is progress?) These countries lost their compass when they destroyed their relics, their churches and drove out the Orthodox (yes, France was Orthodox until the 9th century) at the behest of the Pope. In what position are they to lead the Greeks and Cypriots, who in their faith, have stood against every obstacle? You should explore what has worked for your own people before rejecting it in favor of the blind dictates of those wish to represent their guesses as authoritative.

Perhaps your clergy may have at times become overzealous in defending an Orthodox lifestyle, but undoubtedly they did it to preserve their Church, the one they love--which is, whether you believe in it or not, your inheritance. If they harmed another person in doing so, then God will judge them, but if they took action only because they felt they were threatened, God will bless them. Perhaps they would not have had to protest and so forth had so many Cypriots such as yourself become "not religious". Perhaps they did this so you could return to Cyprus on your vacations or from your visits to the West and find it just as you left it (and just as St Paul left it): a place where God dwells and not, like the homes of Nietzsche and Camus, a place where "God is dead".

[tcklim]

Shame on no-one mae. No-one doubts Cyprus rich history, but the modern church is corrupt and has become a business in itself, with Bishops constantly flinging accusations of each other, be it monetary scandals or their sexual orientation. The Church in modern society should not have the power to strongly influence governmental policies, although they're welcome to their say.

There's nothing wrong with admiring Germany and France, if their systems are what you believe in. But they are not all that different from most other European countries.

Just because someone doesn't share your views, does not instil shame upon them....

[maewing]

I think you missed the point tcklim. Indeed, I know you did--though I appreciate the input. First, I admonished cypezokyli not because he criticized clergy, but because he is Cypriot and, having benefitted from the treasures of his heritage, nonetheless, suggested that Germany and France provide a positive innovation on Orthodoxy. I suggested that IF he was baptized then he forsakes that baptism, because one cannot hold the former view and pretend to be Orthodox.

Yet apart from there being no evidence to support the superiority of the French and German way of thinking, Orthodoxy is not about the actions of a few clergy--whether good or bad. Orthodoxy is about doing the will of God--loving enemies, praying, humility, etc.--virtues which are out of fashion these days. Clergy are human and they make mistakes, sinning just like us, asking for forgiveness, just like us, punished or rewarded by God, just like us. They are respected because they handle God's sacraments--not because they are believed to be Saints. (This is not Catholicism in which clergy (the Pope in particular) are treated as "special" because of who they are.) If you are seeking any earthly person, group or organization that does not disappoint in this way, you will never find it, whether in Orthodoxy or elsewhere--we are created fallen and with the seeds of imperfection.

However, if you think only in earthly terms--as though the Church is simply an administrative organization with a hierachy, rules and a budget--you will also never understand Orthodoxy. Whether you wish to believe or not, Orthodoxy is both earthly and spiritual, consisting of a Church of sinners and a Church of saints. This Church is headed by Christ and the Church is His bride. The two sides are one but nonetheless, on the human (earthly) side, not without error. We believe that the Church, as a whole, however, does not error because it is guided by the Holy Spirit and only for that reason.

Hence, while you may cite episodes of specific individuals who are corrupt, I defy you to find a corrupt or inconsistent instance resulting from an Ecumenical Council or the collection of Orthodox Patriarchs' decisions. The Church has remained unchanged in its actions, its teachings and its results in 2000 years. Moreover, what you may consider dogma may just be your misunderstanding of some individuals' actions. As I said, they may indeed have been wrong, but who are you (or I) to judge?

Moreover, I never suggested that the Church should run Cyprus politics. This we can all agree on. As I mentioned before, the Byzantine empire is a perfect example of the separation of Church and state and it worked for 1000 years. What I said is that if the people of Cyprus (or any EU country) choose to vote or conduct their affairs based upon their beliefs in God, who are the leaders of the EU (indisputably the French and Germans) to remove that ability AS THEY HAVE TRIED?

This is not a slight at the French or Germans, but a statement of dissatisfaction with the actions of their representatives. If it were the Dutch or British, I would include them...

[cypezokyli]

dear maewing

firstly, i ll quote my source :
marc ferro(a prominent french historians) : the use and abuse of history. i ve read the book in greek, but u can just find the page by simply, going to the section of armenian history. believe when i say sth i usually have a source, its not just "as far as i know"
just by a short google search on "first christian nation" i just get only armenian sources. i dont know how your google works..
perhaps its a differences on definition
perhaps you talk about people getting christians and i talk about the first country who has officially accepted christianity.

believe me it is sth that armenians are really proud of. and if it was the case that we were the first, and considering the way our education is taught, we would have known believe me , we get to be proud about more stupid things. if this were the case, we would have known. its just how history is taught...read marc ferro

as a concequence u have a source and i have one....
i dont want to get into such discussions,, but the fact that paul came hier in 50 AD, doesnt mean that we are the first christian nation. unless once again we have a definition problem, which would mean that we argue about a date when we disagree about the term itself.

as for the atheist website you posted, excuse me but i dont see where it sais that cyprus was the first christian nation.

Secondly, you continue to twist what I've said. My reference to France and Germany is with respect to specific events and specific actions taken by their representatives within the European Union to remove religious identity from newly joining countries (not Italy, but Greece and Cyprus, for example)--particularly within the Constitution, drafted by a Frenchman.

i dont see why the religious identity should be written. so i totally agree with such a moove.
not to mention that my id is from 1994 and has not the religion on it, so i dont really see your point!!!
in greece it is true there were some demonstrations, but thank God, the church was not strong enough to get that through.
besides, religion is sth spiritual and personal, whats the point of having it on the id ?

Finally, the fact that you do not understand the reference to "believer" indicates that you truly are not religious (as you say): and even if you were baptized you simply never bothered to understand the religion of your parents or bothered to explore it (which by definition makes you not actually Orthodox). This is not a judgement but an admonishing and statement of fact; it is impossible to explore Orthodoxy truly as a baptized Orthodox and not believe, otherwise you forsake baptism.

since you asked, i am baptised. the problem with religion was that at some point, it couldnt answer a number of my questions. so i kept my right of questioning it as i said, before i do consider religion as part of our tradition. i am also a strong advocate of not loosing our tradition. but it doesnt mean that i let religion influence my life in other ways. i hope i am allowed to do that.

This is sad because as a Cypriot you have an absolute goldmine in your backyard! Do you know the treasures of Orthodox spirituality you have in your own country? You have pieces of the Cross (Stavravouni, the Church of the Cross in Lefkara) you have elders (Bishop Athanasius of Limassol, Abbot Athanasius of Stavravouni, Rev. Sophronious of Larnaca...) you have relics (as I've mentioned), you can worship freely and you have truly believing people! But above all these earthly things, you have God's grace--which has protected Cyprus from countless MORE invasions and total destruction and even worse occupations than you have already suffered. How else do you think a little island in the middle of such a volatile crossroads throughout history has remained free and Orthodox?

no offence , but this is what you believe and you have every right to believe that.
as far as i am concerned this is not a historical argument

Shame on you! Shame on you for rejecting all this and admiring instead the Western ways of France and Germany (or the US even, where I am from), who believe "anything goes". They have only a few hundred years of spiritual history, but you have almost 2000! Of course, they can let anything go over there--they have no roadmap and no blueprint with which to navigate their futures. Tell me when, even once, the Orthodox Church's influence in Cyprus has cost the life or freedom of even one Cypriot or you personally and I will show you thousands of lives and souls lost in these countries because they had no Church (or at least not Christ) at all.

i am allowed to choose what i believe , or what ?
the only spiritual history of greece or cyprus that can be compared to the western one, is before christianity. so , if you allow me to refer to greece, the great spirits of greece like plato and aristotele - were not christians. the same goes for europe, which went through a spiritual revolution, only after it broke its bonds with religion. it was only after that, that science and philosophy, did progress.
i dont know if you are greek, but if you make a small walk around athens you will find hundreds of books claming that the end of the greek civilazation was the result of accepting / having being forced on them christianity..

Any change and anything goes seems good when your empires have crumbled, your values are borrowed, blurred and forgotten and your future has no compass but what you think of as "economic progress" (13% unemployment in Germany--that is progress?) These countries lost their compass when they destroyed their relics, their churches and drove out the Orthodox (yes, France was Orthodox until the 9th century) at the behest of the Pope. In what position are they to lead the Greeks and Cypriots, who in their faith, have stood against every obstacle? You should explore what has worked for your own people before rejecting it in favor of the blind dictates of those wish to represent their guesses as authoritative.

excuse me, but are you connecting economic progrees with religion ??
second I, didnt speak of economic progress..you did. but still i dont see your argument.
i dont know for which empire you are talking about , i am sorry.
perhaps, i didnot made my self clear. i have no problem with religion, and those who believe. i also wish i could also believe in sth like that. i also not claiming that god doesnot exist.

my problem is the church - not religion. i hope we are clear on that

Perhaps your clergy may have at times become overzealous in defending an Orthodox lifestyle, but undoubtedly they did it to preserve their Church, the one they love--which is, whether you believe in it or not, your inheritance. If they harmed another person in doing so, then God will judge them, but if they took action only because they felt they were threatened, God will bless them. Perhaps they would not have had to protest and so forth had so many Cypriots such as yourself become "not religious". Perhaps they did this so you could return to Cyprus on your vacations or from your visits to the West and find it just as you left it (and just as St Paul left it): a place where God dwells and not, like the homes of Nietzsche and Camus, a place where "God is dead".

i dont know what is your problem with nietzche..
in the meantime, i hope you give me the right to disagree with the clergy, even if god will judge them later on. and as far i am concerned some of them, spread hate and thats not what they are supposed to do. so, if they try to influence people exploiting their religious belief, be sure that i ll be against them.