Cyprus-Forum.com

[maewing]

Dear Blackley,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for bringing the discussion back to its initial subject (partly at least): that non-Cypriot Greeks and Turks should leave Cyprus affairs to Cypriots and not interfere.

However, I do disagree with your assertions. As I stated earlier in this forum, it is a well known fact that that EOKA attempted to assassinate Archbishop Makarios before the 1974 invasion, and that EOKA strongly supported enosis with fascist Greek backing. These facts (and many others) suggest strongly that Makarios did not support enosis or the violent campaign of EOKA. Your suppositions (along with your comment about ("Makarios being quoted as saying..") sound like opinions probably gathered from a relative or something. Even the debate on Wikopedia agrees with these facts and that is not necessarily a respected source.

I would also suggest that no one here defending the Greek Cypriot view has used Turkish history as a "scapegoat". That's the first time I've even heard of such an argument and it is ridiculuos, you must admit, given Turkey's aggressive history. In any case, scapegoat would be an appropriate characteization of the GC view if Southern Cypriots (who are 10 times wealthier than Northern Cypriots--with functional roads and so forth--World Fact Book 2005) were complaining about oppression or their "sorry lot". I think you misread people seeking acknowledgement of the truth for crying and blaming. You can do that if you wish, but try showing some integrity and use some sources if you do so.

In that connection, I suggest that we all begin to using references to support our assertions--on both sides of the debate. I believe this will keep it civil and, as always, root out ignorance. The real purpose here is to learn from eachother and not to slag eachother off, right?

[blackley]

Dear Maewing
I do not make assertions, I state facts. If you require me to use references then I can only assume that you have read nothing about Cyprus. Everything fact I quote is on the public record for those who have read every book on Cyprus or researched the internet. If you read my historical fictional novel you will learn of the meeting of Makarios and Grivas where the Archbishop gave his blessing to the formation of EOKA and assumed the leadership and funding of a violent, terrorist organisation. It was EOKA B ( get the difference ) that attempted the assasination of Makarios. By that time he had lost a great deal of support and certainly the Greek Junta wanted him to act more quickly to bring about ENOSIS because it suited their attempt to remain in power. These Junta Colonels were financially supported by the CIA and returned some of this money to the Nixon re-eltion campaign fund.
Greek Cypriots often complain about oppression under Ottoman rule. I am not referring to the present day. I suggest that you read my post again. Over a period of two years, from 5 am to late at night, I researched every aspect of the Cyprus tragedy and wrote a novel. Not one Greek Cypriot has criticised it as being inaccurate.
I do not slag people off. I write the truth. Sometimes it upsets Greek Cypriots and sometimes it upsets Turkish Cypriots.

[maewing]

Dear Blackley,

Insisting that you use references and use facts is for everyone's benefit--including yours. On the contrary, your insisting that what you state is "public record" or that you have read every book ever written on Cyprus as well as the internet is not only doubtful (since you coudl not have done that in 19 hours) but specious. This is a typical ploy of those who write fiction and use fantasy and their imagination to embellish facts and mislead others. I submit that if any GC has not disagreed with your comments on Makarios it is because they have either not read your fictional book (assuming it states your "facts" as you have in your initial response) or felt it was unworth the effort to even comment.

Regarding your latest response, you clearly changed your tone and reversed your position. Before you characterized Makarios as violent monster stating:

"...the undeniable fact is that the aim of the Greek Cypriots under Makarios was to bring about ENOSIS by violent means...

...There are enough public declarations from Makarios, Grivas and Sampson to support the view that the ultimate aim was to rid the island of its Turkish speaking people. " (I do not know how to use the quote thing here).

Now you state something much more like one of my earlier posts (read them to catch yourself up)! You correctly stated that earlier (1959 to be exact) Makarios and Grivas met and Makarios was indeed for enosis. For the record, there would have been nothing wrong with that. An nation that was Greek for several thousand years and still predominantly Greek in language could only be expected to allign with Greek interests.

However, what you missed in your fictional account is that when the movement turned violent under Grivas, Makarios (and most other GCs) turned towards independence and eventually away entirely from Grivas. Nothing you have been able to provide (in terms of fact) contradicts this--not even your latest posting. Again, you can find this in the discussion on Wikopedia; however, you might also look at the Economist between 1970 and 1976.

Moreover, what you state about the Church is completely unfounded.

"The Church in Cyprus became the tax collector, ran the schools and became the richest organisation and biggest landowner on the island."

Where is your proof? I realize as a novelist you are not used to using facts or mixing facts and fantasy, but for one moment, please endulge us and try to use fact. Okay, then I will. There has never been a time when the Orthodox Church in any country has forcefully collected funds and acted as a tax collector--this excludes non-canonical churches like Arians and so forth whom I cannot vouch for. Moreover, Archbishop Makarios' election to president was frowned upon by many in the church (including the Patriarch in Constantinople) but granted only as an emergency, short-term measure. Indeed, it only has one other precedent and that was during Byzantine times. (You can read of this in the Synaxarion which was written during the 12th century if you think there is a bias in what I am saying.)

Finally, you misunderstand the Orthodox. If there indeed was an accusation that Makarios had children (again, you have no facts, you just state it as having been "quoted"), silence was indeed the correct response. Christianity teaches meekness and humility--not violence, vanity and self-redemption (as is taught is Islam clearly evidenced right now). This follows Christ's example who stood silent in the presence of His accusers. If Makarios' response was unnatural to you or to others in this world--that is wonderful to hear. The fact that you draw negative conclusions from it or see it as an admission of guilt says something about the state of your own soul.

[Piratis]

I do not make assertions, I state facts.

Really? So your "facts" are what was supposedly going inside Makarios head, that supposedly he wanted to get rid all Turkish Cypriots and some plans that never became actions? This is your theory my friend, not a fact.

The fact is that Turkey was the one who performed ethnic cleansing in Cyprus by forcefully removing 200.000 Greek Cypriots from their own homes and still, 32 years later she continues to use a 32 year old excuse to deny them the right to return. Now this is a FACT.

Despite all the claims and counter claims about which side killed the most

You can make any claims you want. Do you deny this fact:

So the toll for the TCs that you cry about is:

some 100s of casualties during the intercommunal conflict of about one decade

On the other hand the toll for the GCs is:

10s of thousands of people slaughtered and oppressed by the Ottomans for 3 centuries
Some 100s of casualties during the intercommunal conflict
6000 dead and 200.000 ethnically cleansed by the Turkish army during the invasion.

If your point is that Greek Cypriots were not perfect and that they have committed crimes as well, then sure, I perfectly agree. The fact is also that the Turks have committed 100 times more crimes against us.


Therefore you have absolutely no right to pretend to be the Virgin Mary that now demands rewards on the expense of the human and legal rights of Greek Cypriots.

When will turks stop being criminals and end their criminal illegal occupation of Cyprus? Why do you always need an excuse to act in a criminal way? I am sure when the Ottomans first invaded Cyprus and butchered 20.000 in Nicosia also had a "good excuse".

I wonder how many nations, if attacked by Britain, France, Russian, Greece, Armenia all at once would not only survive but defeat them all

So thats what they taught you? My friend, Turkey still exists because the west didn't want Russia to come to the Mediterranean. If it wasn't for the west the country called Turkey would not exist.
So yes, the great powers decided that the Ottoman empire should come to an end and they helped nations like Greeks to gain their independence, but at the same time they made sure that the country of Turkey is maintained.
Even today Turkey would be nothing without the US/UK support. ( I could say the same for Israel, but in their case I am not sure who controls whom)

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

Pirastis
So thats what they taught you? My friend, Turkey still exists because the west didn't want Russia to come to the Mediterranean.

Yet more ignorance, up until the Bolshevik revolution Russia and the Europeans were key allies.

Up untill then they had sought to wipe Turks off the map, if you had done any research into Russian Imperialist history and its attrocities comitted against Muslim peole's of the Caucauses, Ukraine, North Caspain sea you would realise this.

Russia wanted Istanbul, yet so did Brittish, so did the French, so did the Greeks so did every power, hence the City of the World's Desire.

The Turks cleverly played them against each other, won legendary victories at Gallipoli, Sakarya, GaziAntep, SanliUrfa, KahramanMaras, Erzerum, Izmir, Ankara regions.

Face it, Turks were alone and suceeded and when they had to, they even played the European powers against each other, they exploited the Bolshevik revolution to their advantage and got the Treaty of Lausanne accepted.

Pirastis
I perfectly agree. The fact is also that the Turks have committed 100 times more crimes against us.

Prove it.

Maewing
Even the debate on Wikopedia agrees with these facts and that is not necessarily a respected source.

Please go no further, Wikepedia is the most unreliable source you can find on the internet.

As you feel its important enough to quote as if it, exacts "facts" your deeply mistaken, its clear you have no idea what you are talking about and your un-sincere on this topic.

I can go and edit, Wiki right now and post it as facts

Blackley
Dear oh dear, here we go again. Afraid to face up to its brutal past, you, meaning nations, races or religions require a scapgoat. Guess who? A scapegoat is used to transferr the sins of a people and is sent into the wilderness. You and your historians, writers and popular press refuse to look in into your own dark soul but have chosen instead the "barbaric" Turk as a scapegoat. Does anyone seriouly believe that the kings and queens of Europe and the tsars of Russia were models to be admired? Did Alexander the Macedonin conquer half the known world with a handshake at each border? Is the history of "civilised"Europe not one of religious intolerance and exploitation of the people by the landed rich? Were not African Americans treated like inferior animals in many parts of the USA until just a few decades ago? Did the British, French, Spanish and Dutch empires allow conquered nations to run their own affairs and practise their religion? The answer is no! The Ottomans were conquerors, no doubt about that. But they did not have the skill or will to rule the conquered lands. They used the "millet" system that allowed different parts of the Empire to run their own affairs and pay a levy to Istanbul.

I have tried to tell these simple facts to Greeks on this forum for a few weeks, yet they totally deny it and actually have convinced themselves that everyone is making it up.

They then pretend the whole world is against them and plotting, all I can say is these are characteristics of Extreme Nationalists.

Blackley
Makarios called the coup attempt än invasion" even though he had invited the Greek militia to help with his plans to rid Cyprus of Turks. Of course he had a change of heart when things began to go wrong. Stangely, he was one of very few leaders who never wrote his memoirs. He once told a Greek lady journalist that he never lied. He remained silent when asked if he had "wives". Perhaps this explains why he chose not to write his memoirs. In conclusion, let me ask you to look at conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq in the 21st century. Chaos, war lords, no law and order, one group killing another and innocent people dying despite the fact that we have modern medicine, roads and good communications. Now, cast your mind back 100 years. In the dying days of the Ottoman Empire there was no government as we understand the word today. The Ottoman Empire had no control over vast areas of land or the many ethnic groups within its borders. Disease, banditry, lawlessness was everywhere. In the Crimean War for example more soldiers died of disease than were killed by gunfire.

Exactly

[2fan]

Dear 2fan,

The Turks were referred to as the "Ottoman Turks" until the official end and secularization of the empire under Mustafa Kemal (well into the 20th century). If you would like a reference on this, read "Ataturk" (every Turkish person I have ever met has), his biography by Lord Kinross. It is a bit embarrassing if you are Turkish and you (along with LALA) do not know when you were defeated and driven back from your encroachment in Europe--which came while you were allies of the Germans, starting in Buda (Hungary). While I am ignorant of many things, basic history is not one of them---even when it is not of my own country. Hence, I believe it is you who needs to brush up on your history.

Moreover, to set the record straight, I'm not Chinese but American. Yet, regarding the Chinese treatment of these "Turkic tribes" that you refer to, ask yourself how the Turks got to China. Are they indigenous to China? Perhaps, just as they had done elsewhere in their history, there was an encroachment by the Turks?

[/quote]

I have read plenty of books on our history. Your assertion that the Ottomans were "violently expanding" during WW1 is simply a fabrication of your mind. The Ottoman Empire had stopped expanding at the time and was actually losing territory to the "great powers". I suggest you get some maps of the era and compare the size of the Empire at it's zenith. The Ottomans were in a strict defensive mode. They were engaging the enemy on all fronts. Russians in the north, the brits, french greeks and italians in the east, south and west.

Had the west had it's way, Turkey would now be the size of Luxenburg around Ankara. Are you claiming that Turkey was violently expanding within her own territories in anatolia? Ataturk simply took back what was ours to begin with and defined the modern borders of Turkey. Not only did Ataturk save the nation, but handed the so called "great powers" their ass on a platter.

Turkic expansion in Asia?????: Again, your assertion that turkic tribes "encroached" on to their own lands is laughable at best. Where do you think they came from? Did they just fall from the sky? It is clear that you have an ax to grind with anything Turkish. Not only do you need to brush up on your history on the micro level, you should also pay attention to your knowledge of history on the most basic level.

PS: If you're trying to educate yourself on history please try not to do it with Wikipidia.

[blackley]

Dear Maewing
Piraetus
Can I suggest that you check your posts before submission. Two years of research and writing is not 19 hours. On his election as Archbishop, Makarios made his ENOSIS position quite clear. There are dozens of statements by Makarios on the public record ( do your own research). On 4 September 1962, he said "unless this small Turkish community fprming part of the Turkish race which has been the terrible enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duties of EOKA can never be considered terminated". Think about it. Here is the President of all the people of Cyprus and yet he is telling 20% that they will have to go. Three years later he said that Cyprus would become a Holocaust if the whole of Cyprus was not brought to Greece. It is an unfortunate fact that more Greek Cypripots were killed by Sampson and EOKA B in 1974 than were killed by Turkish Cypriots. As there were 20,000 Greek militia on the island in July 1974 I assume that the number of people who died in the Turkish Army Peace Operation were Greek soldiers. Most books on Cyprus are written in Greek or English and are written from a Greek viepoint and tend to focus on post 1974. . Turks are notorious for not producing well-written books in English to show the whole story of Cyprus from 1950 to 1974. That said, I sense there is a change in South Cyprus. I notice that newspapers are now being more critical of the actions of Makarios that led to the current situation. As I have stated in the past, a statesman would have waited ten or twenty years from 1960 before making any attempt to change the Constitution. Unfortunately, Makarios wanted to make sure that he was glorified while still alive. Hubris!

[cypezokyli]

well the question is open : did he do it so soon bc he was so nationalist, or bc he didnt have a clue about politics and couldnt predict the concequences ?

its of those things that you can never have THE answer.

[Eric dayi]

well the question is open : did he do it so soon bc he was so nationalist, or bc he didnt have a clue about politics and couldnt predict the concequences ?

He was both plus he "wanted to make sure that he was glorified while still alive" plus the fact that he wasn't in it on his own, he had help from Greece to let us not forget. They believed that together it'd all be all over and all the Turkish Cypriots would be dead before Turkey and the world woke up and reasled what was happening. But they miscalculated the determination of the Turkish Cypriots to stay alive and not let the Greeks/GC's genocide them (TC's). The Greeks and GC's tried their murdering tactics twice, once in 1963 and then again in 1974 but both times came upon a force which was more than even the combined forces of the Greeks and the GC's can handle.

It is now 43 years since the genocide attempt of us Turkish Cypriots by the Greeks and the Greek Cypriots but we are still there and we will always be there. The island is divided and will stay divided because of the unwillingness of the GC's to share power with us TC's and also because the GC's have not given up on their idea of being the sole rulers of the whole island of Cyprus so that they can have their ENOSIS.

[kalamaras74]

It is now 43 years since the genocide attempt of us Turkish Cypriots by the Greeks and the Greek Cypriots but we are still there and we will always be there. The island is divided and will stay divided because of the unwillingness of the GC's to share power with us TC's and also because the GC's have not given up on their idea of being the sole rulers of the whole island of Cyprus so that they can have their ENOSIS.

Genocide everyone. And Makarios was the mastermind. Newsflash eveyone, ENOSIS is alive!

Can you imagine?