Cyprus-Forum.com

[maewing]

Dear TinMan,

You're right I am ignorant--which is why I posted the topic in the first place, so I could learn. Therefore, if you're knowledgable, please enlighten us.

[Piratis]

Lala, Turks have committed in Cyprus 100 times more crimes against Greek Cypriots than the other way around.

In the intercommunal conflict that you cry about that lasted for about a decade, an equal number of Greek and Turkish Cypriots had been killed.

You use this tiny part of history were you had a couple of 100 of dead (the same with GCs) over a period of 10-15 years to portrait Greek Cypriots in a negative way while forgetting all the rest of the history before and after that, were you committed 100 times more and worst crimes against us.

For Turkish nationalists like you, your version of history is like this:

The crimes the Ottomans committed against us with 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriot victims are too old and do not matter. You sum up this period as "we owned Cyprus", and you expect some reward for your crimes.

In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

Then during the intercommunal conflict all you remember are the crimes against you, and you forget that during the exact same period you had committed an equal amount of crimes against us. In total only some 100s of GCs and TCs had died during this conflict, with the bloodshed mostly ending in 1968 to restart again only after the Turkish started their invasion.

Then you excuse the 6000 Greek Cypriots that you killed with the invasion. You killed 6000 GCs within days!! Not only that but you forced 200.000 thousand out of their homes as well, and you insist on this illegality 32 years after!


So the toll for the TCs that you cry about is:

some 100s of casualties during the intercommunal conflict of about one decade

On the other hand the toll for the GCs is:

10s of thousands of people slaughtered and oppressed by the Ottomans for 3 centuries
Some 100s of casualties during the intercommunal conflict
6000 dead and 200.000 ethnically cleansed by the Turkish army during the invasion.

So not only you started all these, not only you have committed 100 times more crimes against us, you continue to insist today on the illegalities and the violations of the human, legal and democratic rights of GCs because according to you the GCs "deserve it". (while we demand no kind of punishment for TCs. Just return to legality and human, legal and democratic rights for all Cypriots)

But if the GCs deserve this punishment, then what do you deserve for the 100 times worst crimes that you committed against us? 1/3rd of Cyprus for your 18% minority as a reward? I don't think so.

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

Turkey was seeking any excuse.

That makes you even more Idiots, you knew this but just went ahead slaughtering INNOCENT TURKS Well you sure gave one didnt you, BRAGGING that your gonna wipe every Turk off the Island and embarking upon the extermination of a Race smells of Nazism.

Pirastis
When the Turks invaded and took the 37% of the island for the 18% of TC minority your parents left their property to take twice as much in the occupied part of Cyprus.

The same old arguments.

1. We owned 100% of the Islan prior to the Brittish
2. Turkish Millitary was in a War, do you think they had time to sit down get a tape measurer and mark out an exact 18%.
3. Today we are more than 18%


Turkish Millitary wether you like it or not has stopped the fighting, liberated the Turks, stopped ethnic violence and Greek Terrorist reign or Racism on the island.

They had to re-locate the Greeks, otherwise there would just be more trouble and would make the intervention pointless as Greeks would carry on trying to fight Turks.

The difference is, Greeks killed innocent Turks in non-War situation.

Turkish Forces killed Armeed Greeks in War and re-located others to the safety of Greek ruled areas.

Would you all like to be ruled by Turks? if so come to Turkish Cyprus.

You fail to accept, if it wasnt for the Barbaric Actions of the Greeks, Turks wouldnt have to save their people.

As I always said, you have a self-destructive nature.

Now you can cry till the cows come home, Turkish Cyprus exists, Ambargo's will carry on being lifted and I dont care wether you have a problem or not, these are affairs of my Nation of which you are not a part of.

Greeks put us into enclaves like animals in 3% of the Island, thats just beautiful isnt it.

Well the Conclusion is.

You should be carefull what you wish for, you wished for Turks to be wiped off the Island and put us in tiny enclaves.

However, the wish turned sour, and now we are the rulers of our own people.

Pirastis our suffering and yours are not comparable, we were innocent non-combatent targets IN A NON WAR SITUATION.

You provoked a Liberation, and some were killed in a WAR SITUATION.

Now try and work out the difference and apologise.

Get over it, Turkish Cyprus is the future.

[2fan]

Dear LALA, I am surprised but you really don't seem to understand what most of us here are saying and you're also waffling. First you say that Turkish Cypriots have a right to live peacefully there with Greeks. Then you say that the island as Turkish and that Turks removed Greeks because they cannot live peacefully. Which is it?

I think you must begin to face the facts about Turkish history. It is a hard pill to swallow, but you must or you will never find peace. From inception, the Turks have expanded and conquered violently and have never lived peacefully with anyone for which they were not forced to (that is, whom they could not conquer). They expanded violently during WWI because they thought it was an opportunity and supported Germany (another expanding, violent group) because they again, thought it would lead to opportunity. And, indeed it did--they used it to oust Greeks who'd been living in Asia-Minor for at least 2000 years.

Regarding your claim that "Turkey owned the island before the Brits" this is narrowly true. Yes, for about 300 years the Turks were there, but then as they started to lose in WWI they retreated and annexed it to the Brits. Before this, however, there is no history at all of Turks in Cyprus. It was a Greek-speaking kingdom for more than 2000 years. Moreover, do you not think it strange, when you go to Northern Cyprus, that all of the churches and places there (all of which predate the Ottoman occupation by at least 1500 years) are completely desecrated. Muslims claim that the eyes of icons "look into the soul"--so they destroy them and all who venerate them.

This is evil at its heart LALA and you should recognize it before it destroys your heart.

Your lack of knowledge of facts of Ottoman history and the events of WW1 is amazing. Violent Ottoman expansion in WW1?????? What are you smoking? Have you ever looked at Chinese history and their current policies of how they treat Turkic minorities? You know the old saying of "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones"? If you're just trying to make friends before you move to the south then just say so. No ass kissing required. Get some decent History books as well.

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

Exactly 2fan

When the Ottomans ruled, they had a just system and respected the Greeks who were allowed to rule their own people, now some die-hard anti-Turk Greeks like to pretend Ottomans were so terrible but the fact remains there alive today and where allowed to keep their language, religion and cultulre.

We could have so easily exterminated every Greek from the Island of Cyprus just as European powers did in land they conquered, now theres a fact you all HATE to hear.

As the Ottomans werent hell-bent of wiping Greeks off the face of the Island, the Cypriot Society grew closer bonds and ties and really didn't have any problems.

This GOLDEN AGE, of Cyprus which you ALL REFER TO, is the Ottoman Age my friends, so sorry to tell you

Now, the problem is, when the Ottoman power of the Island was taken away and later the Greeks gained power over the Island they adopted IN-HUMANE methods and employed Barbaric acts to "purify" the Island of Turks in a mass-Genocide.

The Greek Junta and EOKA are the sole culprits of the problems, they where the ones who bought this Nationalism here, they where the ones who emphasised the National Differences and Superiority of Greeks who could not live with the Inferior Turks who hence must be SLAUGHTERED.

THe Greek Forces caused total oppression and misery, there was no law and order or any justice, the only justice was being persecuted solely for being a TURK.

Now after 15 years of this kind of treatment, it became very clear to Turks how much Greek Cypriots hate us and are not the same with us and that there is no notion of CYPRIOT as if there was, WHY WOULD WE BE TARGETS.

Therefore, today, the Turkish National Awareness is far greater than even my parents and especially Grand-parents. The Turkish Cypriot youth of today are more Nationalist than their parents and especially grand-parents. And are proud of their Identity and cultural/historical legacy.

This plague of Nationalism is what killed 3 million of my people in the Balkans simply for being Muslim (even non-Turks are collectively labelled Muslims in the Balkans).

Greeks had a German Prince Otto installed as their leaders, instead of the legendary Phanarite Greek family who governed the Greeks during Ottoman times.

Over 6 million refugees from the Balkans and Caucauses flooded into modern day Turkiye. Telling of the unspeakable horrors comitted against them, they were explaining to the people of Turkiye thing about Nationalism A WORD THEY HAD NO CONCEPT OF.

With so many refugees, so much tragedy, they had to do somthing to unite and stand strong against the threat which wished to exterminate all our people and occupy their land, thus Turkish Nationalism was born.

The Ottoman Empire collapsed, Turkish people's rose and fought a Legendary War against the Brittish, French, Russian, Greeks, Armenians and Itallians all at once, defeated them all and founded Modern-day Turkiye.

Many Turkish Cypriots went to fight in this war for the AnaVatan, I'm very proud to know my forefathers were among these brave men and woman.

There is no point getting upset about this, if you wanna look at the cause TAKE A GOOD LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

[Piratis]

the fact remains there alive today and where allowed to keep their language, religion and cultulre.

Thank you for not killing us all and "allowing" as to have our religion and culture. Hey, the Kurds are alive also, and you didnt kill all Armenians either. Lets all gather to thank the great Turks for not butchering as all to the last one (if they did, from whom would they receive taxes and exploit though?)

This GOLDEN AGE, of Cyprus which you ALL REFER TO, is the Ottoman Age my friends, so sorry to tell you

You should be sorry for saying such crap indeed. The golden age of Cyprus was long before that, when Cypriots had their autonomous city kingdoms. The Ottoman rule was a dark age for Cyprus, like it was in most places that the "sick man of Europe" (Ottomans) ruled.

Now, the problem is, when the Ottoman power of the Island was taken away and later the Greeks gained power over the Island they adopted IN-HUMANE methods and employed Barbaric acts to "purify" the Island of Turks in a mass-Genocide.

I already gave you the numbers before. If you call a "mass genocide", the killing of some 100 TCs during a period of 10 in years (in which 10 years an equal number of GCs had been killed), then what do you call the killing of 6000 GCs within days by the Turkish invaders and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000, or the massacre of 10s of thousands of Cypriots when the Ottomans capture the island. (oh, yes, I forgot. You call that the "Golden Age of Cyprus" )

Lala, nobody is buying your propaganda apart from yourselves (and maybe some of your great sponsors in the US and UK).

It is finally time to accept that Greek Cypriots numbering half million people were indeed the victims of the aggression of the 60 million Turks and previously the Ottomans with the great empire, and stop giving lame excuses in a vain attempt to prove that Turks in Cyprus were the victims that now need to be rewarded with giving them 1/3rd of Cyprus on the expense of the "evil" Greek Cypriots. I hope you understand how ridiculous such claim sounds.

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

The Turkish Rule in Cyprus, co-incided with the Tulip Age, the Greeks Cypriot Church greeted the Turks with flowers.

You do realise, before the Ottoman Turks came, your beloved Venetians enslaved your people who had to work the land and hand over all their goods so Venetians could pay another group of Turks, the Mamlukes of Egypt lol.

Turks liberated your people wether you like to admit it or not.

The very reason your on this Earth today as a Greek Orthodox Cypriot is due to the Turks.

Venetians didnt like your Orthodoxy or Language for that matter or culture, you were deemed HERETIKS, if they got their way you would be bowing to the Pope in Rome today and good old Latin speakers

[maewing]

Dear 2fan,

The Turks were referred to as the "Ottoman Turks" until the official end and secularization of the empire under Mustafa Kemal (well into the 20th century). If you would like a reference on this, read "Ataturk" (every Turkish person I have ever met has), his biography by Lord Kinross. It is a bit embarrassing if you are Turkish and you (along with LALA) do not know when you were defeated and driven back from your encroachment in Europe--which came while you were allies of the Germans, starting in Buda (Hungary). While I am ignorant of many things, basic history is not one of them---even when it is not of my own country. Hence, I believe it is you who needs to brush up on your history.

Moreover, to set the record straight, I'm not Chinese but American. Yet, regarding the Chinese treatment of these "Turkic tribes" that you refer to, ask yourself how the Turks got to China. Are they indigenous to China? Perhaps, just as they had done elsewhere in their history, there was an encroachment by the Turks?

[/quote]

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

Mae, wake up from your dream world, European powers had drawn up their proposed borders ages ago, it was a doomed fate waiting to happen.

Ottomans had no choice, Europeans filthy rich with their Slave Trade and Rape and Plunder of America, Australia and Africa money, poured their funds to stir up racial hatred and animousity between non-Muslims and Muslims in the Balkans.

They achieved this, Ottomans tried to broke a last minute deal with Germans, this didn't work, the Ottomans couldnt deal with the wave of European Nationalism the Germans were being defeated in Europe so it wasn't of much use.

This resulted in 5.5 million of our people were slaughtered, Ottoman Empire collapsed, from the ashes the brave Turkish people rose, took on all the invaders, achieved the impossible and drove out the invaders to form Modern Turkiye.

I wonder how many nations, if attacked by Britain, France, Russian, Greece, Armenia all at once would not only survive but defeat them all, push them all out of their land, tear up and puppet pawn treaties, spit on their plans, then draw up their Own treaty and make the World accept THEIR terms and conditions hehe.

Damn, thats amazing

One thing, why did Greeks accept the Population Exchange, was it actually Greeks of King Germanica Otto and the European powers who agreed or was it Greeks cos it was one hell of a bad decision.

Alot of Christian Turks were sent and today one such Turk, Kara-Manlis rules Greece, an intellegent Politrician who keeps ReAl Politiks behind doors with Turkish counterparts

Your basic history is very basic indeed, if you dont know somthing dont embarrass yourself by pretending you do. Reading one book doesnt make you an expert.

You say, "enroachment" haha, what about the Bulgars? they are originally from Central Asia, what about the Hungarians they are also, how about Albanians they are aswell, or Romans theyre from Troy you want me to carry on and expose your one-sided biased shamless propoganda.

Pechen Turks were in the Balkans before Bulgars, so wouldn't they have made an "enroachment" and what about the Slavs in the Balkans?

Your pit ignorance is causing you to slide down the slippery slope of poor arguments, you can tell your pathetic Turk hating lies to your kids but dont think they work on us.

Chinease treatment of Uygur Turks and even Hui (Han) Muslims is really disturbing and disgusting, your an American you shouldnt support such dispicable crimes against humanity.

Chinease and Turks fought a battle for who would gain influence and control of Turkestan, Chinease lost, Turkestan became Turkestan from Turkmenistan to Eastern Turkestan

Dont think you can come here and talk baseless nonsense as if were unaware of China's dirty secrets, now either keep to Cyprus or find a Chinease board.

[blackley]

Dear oh dear, here we go again. Afraid to face up to its brutal past, you, meaning nations, races or religions require a scapgoat. Guess who? A scapegoat is used to transferr the sins of a people and is sent into the wilderness. You and your historians, writers and popular press refuse to look in into your own dark soul but have chosen instead the "barbaric" Turk as a scapegoat. Does anyone seriouly believe that the kings and queens of Europe and the tsars of Russia were models to be admired? Did Alexander the Macedonin conquer half the known world with a handshake at each border? Is the history of "civilised"Europe not one of religious intolerance and exploitation of the people by the landed rich? Were not African Americans treated like inferior animals in many parts of the USA until just a few decades ago? Did the British, French, Spanish and Dutch empires allow conquered nations to run their own affairs and practise their religion? The answer is no! The Ottomans were conquerors, no doubt about that. But they did not have the skill or will to rule the conquered lands. They used the "millet" system that allowed different parts of the Empire to run their own affairs and pay a levy to Istanbul. The Church in Cyprus became the tax collector, ran the schools and became the richest organisation and biggest landowner on the island. Does that sound like oppression? Despite all the claims and counter claims about which side killed the most, the undeniable fact is that the aim of the Greek Cypriots under Makarios was to bring about ENOSIS by violent means. There are enough public declarations from Makarios, Grivas and Sampson to support the view that the ultimate aim was to rid the island of its Turkish speaking people. Makarios called the coup attempt än invasion" even though he had invited the Greek militia to help with his plans to rid Cyprus of Turks. Of course he had a change of heart when things began to go wrong. Stangely, he was one of very few leaders who never wrote his memoirs. He once told a Greek lady journalist that he never lied. He remained silent when asked if he had "wives". Perhaps this explains why he chose not to write his memoirs. In conclusion, let me ask you to look at conditions in Afghanistan and Iraq in the 21st century. Chaos, war lords, no law and order, one group killing another and innocent people dying despite the fact that we have modern medicine, roads and good communications. Now, cast your mind back 100 years. In the dying days of the Ottoman Empire there was no government as we understand the word today. The Ottoman Empire had no control over vast areas of land or the many ethnic groups within its borders. Disease, banditry, lawlessness was everywhere. In the Crimean War for example more soldiers died of disease than were killed by gunfire. But why let the facts get in the way of a good anti-Turk story?
Leyla - "That's what happens in war. Men become animals and women are the ones that suffer.