Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I don't believe that Bananiot sounds stupid.

Either stupid or traitor. It depends.

Come on, we have to stop labelling people if we really want to communicate and learn from each other.

The first thing to learn is the results of the referendum and how to respect them. If they label the vast majority of Greek Cypriots as idiots, then why we should not respond to that?

So according to you, the level of circulation shows how serious a newspaper is?

No, I just gave some quick facts about the newspaper. All I said is that if this newspaper is serious according to somebody, this is just his opinion and not a fact.

I think it's good to have non Cypriot ideas known as well, these are good sources of somewhat unbiased views.

So because I am not Turk, does this mean that my views about Turkey are necessarily unbiased?
Their views are some of the most biased ones. The most unbiased newspaper in Cyprus is Phileleftheros, which has always been an independent newspaper and is bought by Cypriots of all kinds.

[Bananiot]

The Cyprus Mail is not a low circulation paper for a start. The article I reproduced was the lead article of the newspaper and anyone with a slight idea of journalism could tell you that the editor tells his opinions in the lead article. You can agree with it and you can disagree with it. Dismissing it light hearted because the ed is stating his/her opinion or because its a low circulation paper, is a show of bias and an inability to debate using real arguments.

Wasn't Galileo the only person on earth who said the earth is not the centre of the universe? I hate to think of would some members of this forum would do to him when he did not even command a 24% minority vote.

[metecyp]

The first thing to learn is the results of the referendum and how to respect them. If they label the vast majority of Greek Cypriots as idiots, then why we should not respond to that?

You're confusing disrespect and disagreement. I respect the results of the referandum. That's why nobody is trying to force the implementation of the Annan plan to GCs and I do believe that the next plan will have to take GC objections into account (since I respect the fact that they said No). But this doesn't mean that I cannot disagree with their opinion. I still believe that at least one version (maybe not the latest) of the Annan plan could be worked out to be agreeable to both sides and I disagree that the "No" vote is the final vote on the issue.

And don't forget that the majority can be wrong. We've seen this over and over in the history. Once slavery was a majority decision in the US, and now we know that it's wrong. So since the majority believed that the slavery was right, that made the slavery right?

Another thing, you should stop hiding behind the "No" vote. Every GC voted "No" for a different reason. There's no one single reason for the "No" vote and I'm sure these votes can be turned to "Yes" with some changes and some assurances on the implementation of the plan.

So because I am not Turk, does this mean that my views about Turkey are necessarily unbiased?

Not necessarily but it's more possible that you'll be biased. This is just human nature. I'm probably also a little biased towards my community. Biased is not the right word here. I should have said "more inclined". You grew up in your community, you saw their suffering, you know the fears/desires of your community, of course you'll take your community into account more than the other community. Same applies to me as well. I don't understand how you can claim to be so unbiased unless you think you're some kind of God that knows the absolute truth!

Anyway, it's important to hear third party views in order to get a different look at the events from the outside eye.

[Piratis]

You're confusing disrespect and disagreement.

This is exactly what people like Anastasiades are doing. I can accept disagreements. But when those people say that the people that voted "no" did so because they are so stupid and they have been misled and that the "no" vote is not the real will of the majority, is it disagreement of disrespect?

Disagreement means to say their own opinion, not to try to prove that the opinion of the others is actually not the one they have expressed in the most clear and democratic way possible.

And don't forget that the majority can be wrong

Sure, but this is not an excuse. If it was, all coups and dictators would be excused. Democracy is not perfect, but is the best we can have and it should be respected. Furthermore, as I said many times, today we live in the framework of human rights and all majority decisions have to respect them.

Every GC voted "No" for a different reason. There's no one single reason for the "No" vote

I agree that people voted "no" for several reasons. The same happened with those that voted "yes".

I'm sure these votes can be turned to "Yes" with some changes and some assurances on the implementation of the plan

It depends on the number and the importance of the changes. Sure, the better the plan the more will vote for it. The point is that 26%, 35%, 40%, 49% are all percentages higher than the 24%, but they are still not enough. My opinion is that for the "yes" vote to gain over 50% several significant changes need to be made.

Also, we have to consider a result of something like 49%-51%. We saw how many conflicts the 24% - 76% brought. Imagine a result that the "winer" will come with just some 1000s votes difference. We will have a civil war!! The "looser" will start accusing the others of undemocratic procedures, threats etc, and they will demand recount and then another referendum etc.

Our politicians know that. So because we now learned our lesson the next time we will go for referendum it will be when we have reached an agreed solution that the great majority of people will be able to vote "yes" for.

[-mikkie2-]

So I see that the TC's want to persuade the GC's to accept the Annan plan.

We voted NO for a reason. If that reason or reasons is not addressed so that ALL Cypriots can accept such a plan then the answer will always be NO.

The plan addressed the concerns of the Turks at the expense of the Greek Cypriots.

The plan is such that it converts the GC refugees into 2nd class citizens, it allowed for virtyually ALL the settlers to stay, it allowed Turkey to exercise control via the back door on Cyprus. In short Cyprus would be turned into a TUrkish protectorate.

The answer will always be NO to such a plan.

So rather than trying to get the GC's to vote yes under duress, why don't you try to find out more about why we said no and try to come up with some valid discussion.

For example, we don't want to have so many settlers to remain in Cyprus. Can you come up with a compromise solution that we could accept as well as yourselves?

We distrust Turkey, and we don't trust that she has good will. How do we get around that when the plan enhances Turkeys position Cyprus? What would be a good way to get around this?

Turkey has perpertrated many crimes in Cyprus. Why should the GC's have to seek forgiveness from the TC's when the Turks did so much human damage in Cyprus and get away with the resposibility by way of the Annan Plan? Don't you think the process of reconcilliation also means taking Turkey to task for the crimes she committed?

As MicAtCyp has said, reconcilliation comes after a solution not before it. You expect us to bow in humiliation before we accept a plan which will eventually destroy us.

[Bananiot]

Lets therefore tell the TC's the changes we want in order to accept the plan. Talat said he would meet Papadopoulos to that effect. Our President does not want to meet the TC leadership and prefers secret meetings with S. Denktash. What are these infamous changes that we want? Why did Papadopoulos not negotiate them when he had the chance? Why did he insist not to ask for Karpasia at the negotiations?

These are some of the serious questions that we should be asking ourselves before condemning everyone for their role in the peace process over the last two years. We have alienated all our allies and this can not but bring more misery for us in the future. One of the staunchest allies of Cyprus, Ireland, told us yesterday that it was a mistake to allow Cyprus into the EE without solving the cyprob first.

There is no doubt in my mind that we played a dirty trick to the european community in order to get in. We made promises to them which we did not keep. Once in, we duly forgot our promises and now seek to use the EE to pressurise Turkey into submission. We are playing with fire. We are too small for such big stakes. We have tried this in the past and burned our fingers and souls. When will we ever learn?

Note: The fact that I am labelled a traitor by some for my views does not bother me. These are small people using big words whose meaning they do not know.

[Piratis]

Papadopoulos said many times what we want: a democratic independent Cyprus were human rights are respected. Also, Talat said many times that he is not willing to make any major compromises over the Annan plan, so what is Papadopoulos going to discuss with him?

The Annan plan was the creation of the AngloAmericans and Vasiliou - Cleredes helped them bring this thing to us and they are the ones responsible and not Papadopoulos because he didn't manage to change in a couple of months what Vassiliou - Cleredes had agreed already.

So Bananiot, what do you suggest? The Annan plan? Thats rejected already. Anything else to propose? Or the only thing you can do now is to help punish those "small people" that voted "no" and try to force them to accept the Annan plan?

[brother]

ENOUGH.............

I posted that newspaper cutting to show how good turkish-greek relations are getting but here we are a few hundred thousand people making a complete mockery of each other(Cypriots that is)

Any solution in cyprus will come at the price of compromise, but greek politics have taken a new and mature approach which is they can see the larger picture and hence the backing of turkey.

I find it very bad manners to label people because they have a different opinion and because one cypriot thinks all cypriots should think like him or her.

Lets all mature like greece and take leaps of faith and i am sure we will eventually find unity and peace.

I SAY WELL DONE GREECE AND SHE IS THE ONLY ONE SHOWING THE WHOLE WORLD THE WAY FORWARD, AS A UNITY OF CIVILISATIONS CAN ONLY MEAN PROSPERITY.

[metecyp]

So I see that the TC's want to persuade the GC's to accept the Annan plan.

I'm not trying to persuade or force GCs to do anything. But the fact is TCs voted "Yes" to the plan. So TCs showed what they can accept but we're yet to see what GCs want. Tell us what you want. You want changes in the plan? Then tell us what kind of changes. You want a new plan? Then tell us what kind of a plan. You want TCs to go back to the RC, and that's the only choice? Then tell us.

The Annan plan? Thats rejected already.

Yes one version of it is rejected but I do believe that it can be changed in a way to be acceptable to the majority of Cypriots. I don't say this to force anyone to do anything, it's just a personal opinion. If you have a better alternative, let me know.

[-mikkie2-]

I would have thought that by now people know what the GC's actually would want. I think the reasons why we said no have been stated in this forum. There is no big secret about what it is we need to address. There is no big secret list!