Cyprus-Forum.com

[growuptcs]

[quote]Try a proper book you know one that is based on facts.

TCs are going on the book thats biased by facts.

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

Common guys,

Alexis
Please don't take offense at this, but do you actually ever bother researching your posts to this forum

No offense taken, as a matter of fact I do but I see you dont

The word 'Greek' comes from the Latin and was, and is the common term used to describe Greeks in the English language. As you say, this word was coined by the Romans to describe the 'Greeks' or Hellenes.
Also, please look up the dates for Alexander the Great, and I think you will find that the Romans were most certainly around at that time.

You say its the term to describe "Hellenis", if you look on Roman maps, the Macedonians and Hellenes are in quite different terrotories.

Also, the Romans were not in Pella, Macedon, in July, 356 BC so how is this possible.

I think you all need to really read this

These are questions that every Greek should be asking!

Ever since Philip II of Macedonia conquered the ancient City States at the conclusion of the battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC, the region south of Olympus has been without borders and open to all kinds of invasions and barbarian settlements.

THE BIG GREEK LIE: "Modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancient Greeks"

There were no "Ancient Greeks" since the word "Greek" was not coined until after the Roman conquests, approximately 600 years after the establishment of the City States and approximately 150 years after they were conquered by the Macedonians.

It is also well known that the ancient City States were never united politically and never established themselves as a single state. In fact they existed politically independent from one another and fought each other for economic dominance of the region.

The name "Greece" was imposed on the modern Greek Kingdom by the Great Powers Britain, France and Russia. Modern Greeks call themselves Hellenes (Ellines) and their state Hellas (Ellas).

By using the name "Greek" to refer to both the ancient and modern people, the Greek state falsely implies descent for the modern Greeks from the ancients.

By using the name "Greece" to refer to both the ancient and modern states, the Greek State is falsely implying;

(1) continuity between the ancient City States and modern Greece, and

(2) that there was some sort of political unity between the ancient City States themselves where one did not exist..

In reality the words "Greece" and "Greek" were popularized by modern 19th century writers. There are no ancient maps or references with the words "Greece".

The Romans may have made some references to the ancient people living in Sicily as "Grecos" but they referred to the region south of Olympus as Achaia.

During the Ottoman era the people living south of Olympus called themselves Romeos (Romans).

Greece is a newly created state which never existed before the 19th century. The Kingdom of Greece, occupying the region of Morea, present day Peloponnesus, was created for the first time in 1829. Between 1829 and 1912 the Greeks enlarged their territory to present day Greece, by conquering Epirus, Thessaly and 51% of Macedonia.

At its inception Greece stated out with a small population of less than one million people, most of whom were Albanians, Slavs and Vlahs with a small minority of other ethnicities. By the time Greece conquered Epirus and Thessaly, its population grew to three times its original size. In 1907 it registered a population of 2,600,000. After it conquered Macedonia and exchanged populations with Turkey, its population tripled. In 1928 Greece registered 6,200,000 people. 1,100,000 of them were Christians, refugees from Asia Minor.

After the Treaty of Lausanne in July 1923, and after the population exchanges with Turkey, Greece declared itself homogenous consisting of 100% pure Greeks with a very small Muslim but ethnically Greek population.

It is estimated that after Macedonia was conquered, occupied and had some of its population evicted, more than one million Macedonians still remained and were included among the Greeks.

According to Greece however, there were no non-Greeks left in Macedonia after its population exchanges. Also, according to Greece, the ancient Macedonians were extinct, killed off by the Slavs around the 6th century AD during the so-called Slav invasions.

So the question that begs to be asked here is, "What nationality were these million or so people who remained in Macedonia and became part of Greece?" Many Greeks would argue that they were Bulgarians!

If that were the case, then how can the modern Greeks claim purity and homogeneity if at least 16% of its population in 1928 was non-Greek? What about its Vlah, Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements? Clearly they are not Greeks, let alone being direct descendents of the ancient Greeks?

Even this small argument shows that there is something "fishy" about these Greek claims.

For over a century and a half Greek State institutions, organizations and individuals have been making unproven and unfounded allegations that the modern Greeks are direct descendents of the ancients. To this day they have shown no evidence to prove their claims. In fact the opposite is true. There is ample evidence that proves that this particular modern Greek claim is an outright BIG Greek lie.

This exact issue was tackled by Historian John Shea in chapter 4 of The Great Ethnic Mix of Greece, pages 77 to 96, in his book "Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation". Among other things, John Shea proves that even the ancient people were not homogeneous.

"It has been estimated that in classical times the number of slaves in Attica was roughly equal to the number of free inhabitants, or around 100,000. In Sparta there was an even greater proportion of slaves, and most of them, the helots, were Messenians. While the slaves of Athens were a wide racial mix and therefore less likely to unite on the basis of a common language, these Messenian helots of Sparta all spoke Greek, and had a kind of group self-consciousness. Thus they presented 'special problems of security for their Spartan masters, whose numbers were constantly on the decline.' Changes in the ethnic composition of Greek city-states are illustrated by the comments about the case of Piso. Piso, who had been the recipient of an unhelpful decision by a vote of the Athenian city assembly, 'made a violent speech in which he said that the latter-day Athenians had no right to identify themselves with the great Athenians of the days of Pericles, Demosthenes, Aeschylus, and Plato. The ancient Athenians had been extirpated by repeated wars and massacres and these were mere mongrels, degenerates, and the descendants of slaves. He said that any Roman who flattered them as if they were the legitimate heirs of those ancient heroes was lowering the dignity of the Roman name.' Such historical ideas make it clear that even two thousand years ago the notion of ethnic purity amongst the Greeks was difficult to sustain. The ethnic mix continued over the next two thousand years. As Nicol has observed, 'The ancient Greeks were, after all, of very mixed ancestry; and there can be no doubt that the Byzantine Greeks, both before and after the Slav occupation, were even more heterogenous'." (Pages 83 and 84, John Shea, Macedonia and Greece, The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation)

And there you have it!

THE TRUTH: The modern Greeks are not only NOT direct descendents of the ancients, but their Greekness is a myth, a modern 19th century creation.

I know it hurts but please try and understand, EUROPEAN NATIONALISM IS CRIPPLING YOUR PEOPLE.

Pirastis
Turks obviously have an inferiority complex since in their history they managed nothing much more than kill and steal the land of others.

This is why Lala and his kind refuse to accept that their neighbors, the Greeks, had a civilization that was far superior than anything they ever managed to produce

WoW, another anti-Turk denialist.

Ok, this is where you enter an Irony, if as you claim Alex was a Greek well he was nothing but a barbarian destroyer, ruining the beauty of advanced Persia.

2. What have Greeks achieved lol?

As the Romans famously said,

"Greeks Thought Romans Did"

When it comes to Turks, dont worry I got alot to be proud of

We bought the Chinease to there knees and ended the intolerant reign of the Romans in both the West and East.

We established flourishing Civilisation in Eastern Turkestan (Uygur Empire), the great Gok Turk Empire, the Great Khazars a place of tolerance and civilisation the only place where Jews, Muslims, Christians could live together in peace.

Then we can move on to the DullunOgullari, who built the Largest Oldest Mosque of Egypt.

Or to Turkestan and the beautiful cities of Samarkent, Bukhara, TasKent, the beautiful domes, the great flourishing civilisations, names like Tarkan Farabi, Ahmet Yesevi, Rumi of Anatolia, Yunus Emre, Bektashi.

I mean the Justice system of America is influenced by that of Suleyman the Magnificent.

The Great wonders and treasures of the Selcuks.

The beauty of Babur Kaan's Empire

The Blue Mosque, Topkapi Palace, DoguBeyazit, Selimiye Mosque, Divrigi, the Great Walls of Jersualem, Keykubad of Konya etc etc etc etc


Hey read what the TIMES writes


WHAT HAVE THE TURKS EVER DONE FOR US?

Multiculturalism

Though its rulers became Muslims, the Ottoman empire was home to Christians, Jews and Buddhists co-existing in peace and prosperity with Muslims from Anatolia to Algeria, centuries before the word multiculturalism was thought of. No other partner offers the West a better bridge to Islam or a more promising exit from the clash of civilisations.

Trade

Sitting astride the most strategic crossroads in Asia, the Ottomans, with their ships and caravans, achieved domination of the silk road and taught the West everything it knew about trade before the advent of ocean-going ships. Today, it offers a huge market and unrivalled connections to the resources of the Caspian and the Middle East.

Politics

A genius for statecraft took a band of nomads from the barren steppe of central Asia to the gates of Vienna. The pioneers of a disciplined bureaucracy and inventors of a standing army, they awed their enemies and seduced the Christian peasants meant to fight them, who could see a better life under the Ottomans.
Art

Turkey has brought us some of the finest works from calligraphy and metalwork to illuminated manuscripts and glass. Chinese pottery, Persian textiles and Venetian painting all flourished at Turkey's imperial court. It was that openness and synthesis that powered a humanist enlightenment centuries ahead of Europe's.

Military know-how

Known as the "storm on horseback" the heirs to Genghis Khan brought their cavalry sweeping across the plains of Anatolia into the Balkans and beyond. Their enemies only matched them with the advent of sea power and by copying their techniques. Today's Turkey, a Nato stalwart, lends credibility to the notion of a European defence force.

Style

They sat on divans on beautiful carpets, smoking hookahs and eating lakoum (Turkish delight). Their tired bodies were steamed back to harmony in ornate baths. Ottoman luxury was a fascinating scandal to the hardy puritans of northern Europe. Now we've learnt to lounge, and oriental comforts are part of our lives.



http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article316361.ece


Multiculturalism

Phillip Mansel - City of the World's Desire

Multinationalism became the essence of Constantinople. A common literary device of Ottoman writers would be to compare the merits and looks of the many nationalities in the empire and its capital. In the fifteenth century national differences, based on history and geography more than race, could be acutely felt: Gennadios, first Oecumenical Patriarch under the Ottomans, called Greeks `a race than which there has been none finer on earth'. A medieval Polish proverb stated: `As long as the world is the world, the Pole will not be the German's brother.' Mustafa Ali, a prominent sixteenth-century historian, extolled as a source of strength the number of nationalities in the empire Turks, Greeks, Franks, Kurds, Serbs, Arabs, Persians, Cerkez and others. In the nineteenth century a minister of the Sultan, Cevdet Pasha, called the Ottoman Empire a great society `because its people spoke many languages and because it selected the best talents, customs and manners from among its various nations'. The variety of nationalities in Constantinople was proudly advertised in drawings, photographs and the composition of the Sultan's bodyguard; in the twentieth, in political processions and the deputation sent to depose a Sultan.


Twenty-four years after the conquest, in 1477, a census was taken by the city judge of Constantinople, for the personal information of the Sultan. There were, in Constantinople and Galata: 12,486 houses inhabited by Muslims; 1,743 houses inhabited by Greeks; 1,647 houses inhabited by Jews; 434 houses inhabited by Armenians; 384 houses inhabited by Karamanians of Armenian appearance; 332 houses inhabited by Franks (all in Galata); 267 houses inhabited by Christians from the Crimea, and 31 houses inhabited by gypsies. In all there were perhaps 80,000 inhabitants (excluding the slaves of the Gate). Constantinople was a city which defied nationalism, in whose streets Greek, Armenian, Italian, Lingua Franca, Albanian, Bulgarian and Serbian, Turkish, Persian and Arabic, were spoken.

The only multinational capital in Europe


Politics

This is very informative please read,


The Ottoman State
The Ottomans inherited a rich mixture of political traditions from vastly disparate ethnic groups: Turks, Persians, Mongols, Mesopotamian and, of course, Islam. The Ottoman state, like the Turkish, Mongol, and Mesopotamian states rested on a principle of absolute authority in the monarch. The nature of Ottoman autocracy, however, is greatly misunderstood and misinterpreted in the West, particularly in world history textbooks.
The central function of the ruler or Sultan in Ottoman political theory was to guarantee justice ('adala in Arabic) in the land. All authority hinges on the ruler's personal commitment to justice. This idea has both Turco-Persian and Islamic aspects. In Islamic political theory, the model of the just ruler was Solomon in the Hebrew histories (Suleyman is named after Solomon). The justice represented by the Solomonic ruler is a distributive justice; this is a justice of fairness and equity that comes closer to the Western notion of justice. In addition, however, 'adale has Turco-Persian coordinates; in this tradition, 'adale, or justice, is the protection of the helpless from the rapacity of corrupt and predatory government. In this sense, justice involves protecting the lowest members of society, the peasantry, from unfair taxation, corrupt magistracy, and inequitable courts. This, in Ottoman political theory, was the primary task of the Sultan. He personally protected his people from the excesses of government, such as predatory taxation and the corruption of local officials. For the Ottomans, the ruler could only guarantee this justice if he had absolute power. For if he was not an absolute ruler, that meant that he would be dependent on others and so subject to corruption. Absolute authority, then, was at the service of building a just government and laws rather than elevating the ruler above the law as Europeans have interpreted the Sultanate.

I could go on for years but theres no need to brag, I'm comfortable with my identity and very proud, if you choose to be Denialists well you'll be denialists, you carry on telling each other "Nasreddin Hoja" stories without realising what the man is

Peace

[bg_turk]

Concerning Macedonia:

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancien ... icity.html

Contrary to modern Greek claims, Macedonia was never part of Greece, and the ancient Macedonians were not regarded as ancient Greeks. Quite the opposite – the Macedonians conquered Greece and enslaved the Greeks for centuries until Rome conquered Macedonia in 168 BC. The purpose of these pages therefore is:

To provide the reader with documented evidence for all these assertions above.
To show the reader that ancient Macedonians could not have been Greeks based on all documented evidence.
That ancient Macedonians conquered Greece and did not unite the Greek city-states.
That ancient Macedonians did not regard the Greeks as their kindred.
Alexander the Great was not a Greek king, did not regard the Greeks as kinsmen.
Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a Greek army.
Alexander's Macedonian conquest was not a Greek conquest.
Ancient Macedonians were just that - Macedonians, and looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt.
It will provide scholarly evidence that the ancient Macedonians:

hired mercenaries from Greece, and used the Greeks as foreign allies.
razed Greek cities to the ground.
sold the Greek inhabitants as slaves.
pillaged and burnt Greek cities and countryside.
garrisoned Greek cities (a sure sign of servitude).
were asked to evacuate from the whole of Greece back to their own Macedonia by the Romans.
were hated and cursed by the Greeks.
destroyed Greek religious temples and monuments.
enslaved the Greeks.
were not regarded as Greeks (Hellenes) by the Greeks, nor they regarded themselves to be Greek, but were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life.
the Macedonians were called barbarians, a label that the ancient Greeks attributed only to all non-Greeks.
Here you will find evidence, both ancient and modern, that proves that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks, evidence that is indeed overwhelming. To the ancient peoples and to the ancient authors that was not a matter for debate; it was simply an accomplished fact.

"Ο Φίλιππος είναι βάρβαρος, δεν είναι Ελληνας και δεν έχει καμμία σχέση με την φυλή των Ελλήνων"

Δημοσθένης: 3η ομιλία κατά του βασιλέως της Μακεδονίας

[bg_turk]

The greek quote says:

Phillip (the father of Alexander) is not Greek, and does not have any relation with the Greek race.

In a speach by Demosthenes

[bg_turk]

Why do you bother expending any energy responding to this "mustapha" . it is pointless. if he said that Aristole was Chinese, or Mozart was from the Nigeria would you bother answering. of course not.

Lala_Mustafa_Pasha, is not the only one who thinks that Macedonians were not Greek, many international scholars agree with this thesis:

Differences Between The Ancient Macedonians and The Ancient Greeks by J.S. Gandeto
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/gandeto.html

Why is Greece Stealing the Macedonian History?
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/GreeceS ... story.html


More info on:
http://www.macedon.org/anmacs/frame.htm
http://www.makedonija.info/ancient.html
http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/ancient.htm

[fideld]

vre trallala mustafa and bg turk, do you really bother so much to prove to us that greeks are nothing??Ouaou, I start thinking again, should I be ashamed to be Greek? Should I be a concurror like for example a turk? Ok I promise to think about it tonight and let you know tomorrow if I will deny our greek identity and become a proud ( ) Turk...
Boy, I laughed today!
Dont tell me that you expect us to read all the wasted copy-paste "apokalipses" you made...
Congratulations, I give you the attatourk 1st prize. Now you can go to sleep in peace

[joe]

BG Turk,

So glad your not pretending to be a moderate in these forums anymore.

This site answers all the propaganda from the site bg Turks is copy pasting from:

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/index.html

The site contains real info from former minister and is not some website created by someone who has an agenda like the site bg Turk is using.
Also, did everyone hear about the new massive Tomb found in Macedonia? Its making news every where. That should help Greece with the name dispute it has with Skopia. Archeologist from all over are going to Greece to check it out.

[Lala_Mustafa_Pasha]

Guys, dont attack the person, attack the material

You can attack Bg_Turk, you can attack me, you can divert and foam at the mouth all you like but common why dont you attack and prove the material wrong.

I dont get this, we post some facts to show some poor brainwashed people they have been fed alot of Nationalistic Hype and your deemed an extremists

[bg_turk]

This site answers all the propaganda from the site bg Turks is copy pasting from:

http://www.hri.org/Martis/contents/index.html

The site contains real info from former minister and is not some website created by someone who has an agenda like the site bg Turk is using.

You are absolutely right. The HELLENIC Resources Network has no agenda whatsoevers. Its like me quoting ATCA an independent and unbiased source. Please, come to your senses.

This site answers all Greek allegations point by point:

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/GreekPropaganda.html

[Piratis]

bg_turk, all the sources that you give are propaganda websites belonging to FYROM a country made by people who are Slavs and have absolutely nothing to do with Alexander the Great, Macedonia or anything related. Them claiming that they are the Macedonians is like the Turks that show the Greek, Roman and Byzantine ancients that exist in the land they currently occupy and they try to make others believe that that history has something to do with them.

What have Greeks achieved lol?

We established flourishing Civilisation in Eastern Turkestan

"Turkish civilization"?? These are 2 words that only Turks put together. Go in google and search for "Turkish civilization" you will get 565 results, VS 238.000 results that you get for when you search for "Greek civilization".

Lala, just a tip: When you try to pass propaganda try to stay within some limits. When you go off these limits everybody can understand that what you say has no value and your words receive no respect even from the most ignorant ones who might have otherwise believed some of the things that you said.

We bought the Chinese to there knees and ended the intolerant reign of the Romans in both the West and East.

The Chinese and the Romans are true examples of great civilizations. Do you expect congratulations to your hordes for their "achievements"?

By the way, the original Turks were Mongoloid Asians. Most Turks today are mostly Kurds, Greeks, Romans etc, that changed their religion to muslim.