Cyprus-Forum.com

[-mikkie2-]

The Republic of Cyprus exists and it is legal. It is not the 'Greek Cypriot Republic'.

I still think that the TC's have the opportunity to claim their rights. On the one hand they deny that the Republic of Cyprus exists, yet on the other, when it suits them, it does exist in order to get the benefits of being a citizen of the legal state.

Faced with the military might of the Turks, all the GC's have to fall back on is the legal state of the Republic of Cyprus to support them. Of course under the present circumstatnces, the RoC is the only shield that they have.

[metecyp]

The Republic of Cyprus exists and it is legal. It is not the 'Greek Cypriot Republic'.

In theory, yes, but can you sincerely say the same thing in practice?

I still think that the TC's have the opportunity to claim their rights. On the one hand they deny that the Republic of Cyprus exists, yet on the other, when it suits them, it does exist in order to get the benefits of being a citizen of the legal state.

I agree that there are TCs who agree that the RC exists when it suits them. However, the same sort of thing happens with the GCs as well. On one hand, they say that the RC exists and it's not the GC republic. They try to promote the TCs to come back. On the other hand, they try their hardest to keep the RC as it stands today (i.e. no TC participation). If the RC was conceived to be a bicommunal republic by the GC community, then Piratis could not say "I have no problem with the Greek national anthem being the RC national anthem." You can't deny that there are still GCs who do not even accept the 1960 agreements as they stand today. For those people, the RC is what it is in the south today, i.e. GC republic with no TC participation, and not what was agreed in 1959-60. Sometimes I feel that the RC in the south exists because TCs are not in it.

[michalis5354]

All these Gcs or TCs who see their only shelter being either Greece or Turkey are betraying their own country. They are so foolish , because they are being used to serve foreign interests other than Cyprus interest and their own private interest.


Although EU has approved a financial aid of 259mln Euros in financial aid of the TC community Mehmet Ali Talat is considering to reject it If it does not come simultaneously with the Direct rade. I do not think EU works like that . It was Mehmet Ali Talat who complained 2-3 months ago about the unfair embargoes and so on , so how can he reject now this Financial aid aiming at assisting the Turksihcypriot community . This is another Fussy approach that does not assist anyone.

[brother]

These are assumptions of the worse kind for us to get into as only a small number of people still want a hellenic state, and from the southern cypriots i have met all of them talk of unity with all there cypriot brothers.
On both sides there are people who play two sided but that is human nature for some and they will be exposed sooner or later so let us the cypriots who want unity carry on the fight for it and not get drawn into tit and tat debates that have no fruitful results in the end.

[MicAtCyp]

If the RC exists and if the GCs are present in the RC, then GCs *cannot* use the nonexistance of TCs as an excuse to do whatever they like such as using Greek national anthem with the RC flag.

I think everybody here me included agreed this is wrong. I even went along and said what I expect in the future. I also asked a question that nobody answered me so far and I think it is important to know the answer if we are going to have a meaningful discussion. I repeat it:
The 1960 constitution did not mention anything about the National anthem. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yet from 1960-1963 that the TCs were in the Republic Denktash never vetoed the use of this anthem. And no Tc complained. Why? How did the Greek National Anthem become official.
By the way did you hear the national anthem chosen during the Anan Plan? It is really moving, It really touched me.Excellent! I think Turker even made it a Nokia tune in this forum.

I'm going to be honest with you. What you said has some truth in it but it's not the whole truth. There are many TCs that will be more willing and assertive to return back to the RC (or at least some federated form of it) if they are given the right message from the Republic of Cyprus.

That's encouraging. Like you said in previous posts (or was it Mehmet who said that) there are only a few alternatives left. The other one being partition...About the "right message": The best one would be to offer the TCs government jobs. But then I wonder how can this be done while the division continues? In fact due to this situation even the RoC acts in a way that looks "hostile" to the TCs. As for example the free trade with EU and the economic measures. On one hand it has to protect her existence, on the other she cannot help without at the same time legalising the occupation....

So you're saying that since TCs don't revolt against the occupation, the RC cannot exist as it is supposed to be and it will stay like a Hellenic Cyprus Republic until a solution is found.

Here I disagree on two things. First to the statement that the RoC is not as it should be.If you have a look at the Anan Plan those 20,000 pages of laws were by 99% laws of the RoC and were all accepted! And I ask, would they were accepted if they were not the laws they should be?

The second part I disagree is this Hellenic CR. Like I said before the RoC is one thing and the GC community another. In fact inside the GC community there are Armenians, Maronites and Latins. You cannot call the RoC a Hellenic state because it has almost nothing in common with the real Hellenic State (Greece).You cannot imagine how many administrative differences we have with Greece. Our legal system our governing system almost everything here is British, and completely different from the Greek ones. Here we have permanent Government employees, there when Pasok gets the power most government directors lose their jobs and get replaced by affiliated to Pasok directors.Even our accounting system, nobody goes to Greece to study Accountancy because their system is completely different. Most of the education however is based on Greek books.For important lessons though, like Maths Physics Chemistry etc our books are written by Cypriots and follow the GCE syllabus.But anyhow even this, is not against the 1960 constitution, remember education was the responsibility of the communities in the 1960 constitution not of the state. I would need to write a book to prove that this "hellenisation of the RoC" statement is mostly invalid.What is needed is the other community to come in to eradicate the few things we slipped out. That's all...

[-mikkie2-]

MicAtCyp,

I think your assessement hits the nail on the head.

In my view, the TC argument is pretty groundless as it presupposes that we deny the TC's to be represented under the RoC. That is simply not the case.

It is Turkey and the occupation regime that denies this right to the TC's. If the TC's started demanding their rights under the RoC the position of Turkey in Cyprus would completely fall apart.

The first steps are slowly happening I believe and this is what I think Papadopoulos is attempting to achieve in the long run. And actually, thinking about it, it makes perfect sense!

[metecyp]

The 1960 constitution did not mention anything about the National anthem. Please correct me if I am wrong. Yet from 1960-1963 that the TCs were in the Republic Denktash never vetoed the use of this anthem. And no Tc complained. Why? How did the Greek National Anthem become official.

I don't know when the Greek national anthem became official. I doubt that it was used during 1960-63 period. I doubt any TC would not say anything about that.

On one hand it has to protect her existence, on the other she cannot help without at the same time legalising the occupation....

It's a fine balance and it's not easy to satisfy everyone but I feel like GCs are so paranoid about legalizing the occupation that they tend to ignore the bigger picture and TC rights/needs in the RC. For example that olympic torch comedy, we all remember that right? We lost the chance of the olympic torch bringing its symbols all around the island because GCs were so paranoid...

And I ask, would they were accepted if they were not the laws they should be?

You're mixing the theory and the reality. I'm not arguing that the RC on paper exists but that's exactly the problem, most of its fundamental laws regarding TCs only exist on the paper.

You cannot call the RoC a Hellenic state because it has almost nothing in common with the real Hellenic State (Greece).

I was not saying that the RC is the real Hellenic State. I was trying to stress that it is not bicommunal as it is supposed to be. GCs make all the decisions and they don't necessarily consider TC wishes/desires when they make decisions. The Greek national anthem, the Asia Minor genocide law, etc. prove that the GCs don't feel obliged to consider TC wishes in their decision making and this is wrong.

[metecyp]

In my view, the TC argument is pretty groundless as it presupposes that we deny the TC's to be represented under the RoC. That is simply not the case. It is Turkey and the occupation regime that denies this right to the TC's. If the TC's started demanding their rights under the RoC the position of Turkey in Cyprus would completely fall apart.

I agree that Turkey has also some influence on TCs not being represented in the RC, but I don't agree that the TC argument is groundless. Maybe I should put it this way. Maybe, GCs do not deny TC participation directly (although this is yet to be seen) but they certainly do not encourage it either. Do you really expect me, as a TC, to feel comfortable under the RC flag with the Greek national anthem? If not, then shouldn't you and the GC community in general do something about it? Yet, Piratis himself expressed that he has no problem with the Greek national anthem.

[-mikkie2-]

Do you really expect me, as a TC, to feel comfortable under the RC flag with the Greek national anthem?

No, but what I do expect you to do as a TC is stop putting all the onus on the GC's to do something about this when you have 40000 turkish troops protecting your 'state' in the north, allowing the sale of other peoples land and property to foreigners and to feel happy seeing Paendadactylos covered in the flag of an illusionary state! How do you think that makes us GC's feel?

If the TC's are happy with the way things are in the north and don't stand up for their own rights in the face of colonisation and occupation, you can't expect the GC's to do that for you. We are fighting for our existance in Cyprus and are fighting to keep the RoC alive. The actions of Turkey on the other hand do the exact opposite. The TC's are sitting in the middle wondering what to do.

You cannot change things in the RoC if you sit outside it. The only way is to be in it!

[metecyp]

You're trying to justify one wrong doing with another. I am not happy about 40.000 Turkish soldiers on the island, I am not happy about the north being sold to foreigners, I'm not happy about what's in the north and what's happenning in the north. But the biggest difference between the north and the south is that the south, the Republic of Cyprus, is supposed to be legal and it's supposed to represent the whole island whereas the north almost gave up on claims of legality. So why are you comparing the "illegality" of the north with the "legality" of the south unless you think that they're comparable?

If the TC's are happy with the way things are in the north and don't stand up for their own rights in the face of colonisation and occupation, you can't expect the GC's to do that for you.

Nobody is asking GCs to do anything for TCs. All I'm asking is that live up to what you claim. If you claim that the Republic of Cyprus exists and it's legal, then make it what it's supposed to be. That's all I'm asking.

I guess I need to explain why I insist on this. I'm tired of getting mixed signals from GCs. They say the Republic of Cyprus is there and it's legal and TCs are welcome to it, but then I hear some GCs complain about the extra privileges provided to TCs in the RC and some GCs admit that they're ok with the Greek national anthem being the national anthem of Cyprus and so on. All these make me think that GCs don't really believe in the RC as it is supposed to be and the RC exists because there are no TCs in it.