Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Well, well. Welcome back.

It seems a fair enough question. What’s a Russian anti-ship missile doing in a Ukrainian city 200 Km from the Black Sea?

It may have been designed to use against aircraft carriers but ........ I may be wrong but I don't think Ukraine have any aircraft carriers? Surely you would use anything capable of doing the job, like you would use an anti-tank missile against a concrete 'pill box' or a command center ?

I don't think its designed use is of any significance.

I was on quite a good discussion site until recently when it got swamped with loud mouthed offensive anti-Putin lunatics and the quality of conversation went down hill ..... very rapidly and all those who were not anti-Putin .... were made targets of abuse. So I quit and decided to test the water here. It seems to have gone rather quiet since the dual between GR and Milti !

I am glad you are back RH. Nothing to worry here. We are the majority.

[Pyrpolizer]

When the Eurocopter EC 225 LP Super Puma was withdrawn from the market, after incidents that the propeller liked to flip off, the Ukrainians thought it was a great opportunity to buy 50 used ones, at bargain price.
The result:-->

https://twitter.com/i/status/1615611192243781634
https://twitter.com/truestory24/status/ ... 1412310017

[Londonrake]

Well, well. Welcome back.

It seems a fair enough question. What’s a Russian anti-ship missile doing in a Ukrainian city 200 Km from the Black Sea?

Answer? Because they do a lot of damage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-22

And cost aside, the Russians have used them a lot in Ukraine.
.

It's not anti-ship only. There are various versions, read your own link.

A moot point really.

As RH implies, missiles are fundamentally flying bombs, so can ultimately be used for any number of purposes. Nevertheless, the KH-22 was primarily designed (60 years ago actually) as an anti-ship weapon, specifically to attack carriers. A 100,000 ton piece of steel sitting in the ocean doing 30 kts being about as dog's bollocks a target as you're likely to get. It's never been produced, in any of its variants, as a weapon for precision targeting in urban areas.

The view that the missile killed all those civilians because the Ukrainians intercepted it - so they're responsible - is just a variation on the "false flag" story that gets dragged out every time a large number of civilian deaths makes the front page. The obvious follow on logic being that the Ukrainians could avoid a lot of their city dweller's deaths by ignoring all the incoming missiles and drones. Much as they could have done by turning a blind eye to the Russian invasion last February. The subsequent large scale death, destruction and millions being forced from their homes has clearly been all their fault.

I am glad you are back RH. Nothing to worry here. We are the majority.

Yes, you are, and I'm sure there will be lots of discussions between you on technical issues. Whether you think that makes for a good forum or not is objective I suppose.

Regardless, I'm sure I can't be the only one who misses Paphitis being "in DA house" or GR's endless links.

[Pyrpolizer]

You are not following the discussion... as usual. Arestovich already said what I said. He is/was ZelenSKY's top advisor in case you don't know.
I don't miss the lunatic, or the Nato cheerleader, and if you think there are better forums, go there.

[Londonrake]

You are not following the discussion... as usual. Arestovich already said what I said. He is/was ZelenSKY's top advisor in case you don't know.
I don't miss the lunatic, or the Nato cheerleader, and if you think there are better forums, go there.

It seems you're bent upon turning the forum into a very small group of like-minded people. With the possible exception of RW that is.

As far as there being better forums and leaving, IIRC it was your good self who did so, proclaiming the attributes and lack of moderation (not that it's a problem here) of Reddit once.

It all sounds a bit like the situation RH was descrjbing.

[Robin Hood]

LR

The view that the missile killed all those civilians because the Ukrainians intercepted it –

.....is correct! As far as we know it is a fact. Accept that as being an Unfortunate reality as these things happen in war.

You demonstrate what then goes wrong and is something that happens every time. You then attribute blame and Kyiv does the same thing every time and are always first out of the starting blocks with accusations! The first response by Kyiv is always that it is a deliberate attack on civilians by Russia and that is the story the MSM run with before any proper investigation is carried out. The scene is set and as you say “....so they're (Russia) responsible”.

Then you ricochet ......

“........ is just a variation on the "false flag" story that gets dragged out every time a large number of civilian deaths makes the front page. The obvious follow on logic being that the Ukrainians could avoid a lot of their city dweller's deaths by ignoring all the incoming missiles and drones. Much as they could have done by turning a blind eye to the Russian invasion last February. The subsequent large scale death, destruction and millions being forced from their homes has clearly been all their fault.”

Everything in the part of your quote above is just speculation and your opinion. It is your sort of logic that causes the clash of opinions. If you were to just stick to facts ........ rather than pen a “cover” story, there would be no disagreement. Can't you see that you just fan the flames.

[Robin Hood]

A few weeks after the Russians attacked Ukraine, I read an article by Mike Whitney (a well established independent journalist).

His article referred to the OSCE – Special Monitoring Mission – in Ukraine and their daily reports, in particular the two week period immediately preceding Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. It was informative and above all just pure fact from a recognized official and independent organization. I came to the same conclusion as Whitney …… I would say to do otherwise was almost impossible.

These are the OSCE SMM reports on Ukraine that he referred to:

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/reports?page=3

(I set the dates between the 10th and the 24th Feb 2022 and for Daily Reports. Each date covers a 24hr period where observations were made by observers and logged. Select ‘Download full report’ and that starts with a summary which locates all the explosions observed in two regions, Luhansk and Donetsk and on both sides of the Minsk LoC. Scroll down and a computer generated map of the explosions locations is shown in colour and shows graphically where the fire was concentrated.)

Now you work out what message that factual and impartial information i.e. ....... time .... quantity ..... impact location ..... tells you?


Yesterday I received this, which was the article Whitney also referenced:

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/ukraine-the-search-for-peace

This was the original report by a Swiss Army colonel Jacques Baud (who now resides in Belgium) and who was in charge of monitoring Warsaw Pact forces in the final years of the Cold War for the Strategic Intelligence Service of Switzerland.

It is a long read 30-40 minutes but gives a view of the Ukraine conflict which reflects to a great degree the conclusions I have come to. IMO: It is worth the time to read it.

FYI: This was the original Mike Whitney article:

https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/russia-started-the-war-and-other-fallacies/

[Londonrake]

RH

Well, after all these years, I'm not naïve enough to have believed we would end up on the same wavelength

Apart from a couple of jibes here and there, mostly at Paphitis I think, I stopped posting on this thread quite some time ago. There simply seemed no point and any responses (when you're not being ignored by proclamation that is ) were invariably contemptuous or ad hominem in nature.

It strikes me that, whatever the outcome, this is looking to be a long war.

Yesterday I was genuinely pleased to see you back and posting again so contributed (or perhaps not ) something which I thought was in the main pretty uncontentious and even modestly welcoming. That'll teach me!

It sounds like you've been doing a bit of lurking over the past couple of years so will understand when I say you're in good company on this thread.

Whilst I'm not petulantly proclaiming never to post here again, on the whole I think it better mainly avoided. Although, Paphitis's (jingoistic) contributions can be hard to resist sometimes.

So, I leave you here to (mostly, from past efforts) discuss mutual revelations, usually obtained from "independent" or hard research required sources, accompanied by back patting agreement. Plus of course, RW throwing in the odd comment and regular pro-Ukrainian YouTube. Something for the team to get their teeth into for a change.

Enjoy and - again - welcome back.

[Robin Hood]

I just pointed out that by sticking to facts you can always justify an argument. Directly you decide to apportion blame ...... you drift out of the factual domain.

You obviously only read what you believe will confirm your bias. Unless you have facts to back your bias it is just you expressing your unsupported opinion.

Just saying!

You obviously didn't read the article by Col.Baud ? Shame ...... he makes a lot of sense and has the background that says he knows what he is talking about.

[Lordo]

RH I would like to ask your opinion on a matter.

How do you see an individual that view's a critical post about a political party or the establishment of a country as a attack on that country?

I say he is a fascist. Am I right?