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Ukrainian Issue

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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:11 pm

Lordo wrote:So what happened to the idea of having Nuclear weapons so it can deter war. Both Russia and America have Nuclear weapons and yet there is no deterence. What a waste of time spending billions a year on them. Just think how much more could be done for the people if that money was put to good use.

Having heard our glorious BoZo give his address Ukraine will be fine because he is behind them and he is praying for them. So they must have god on their side too.


Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons. It gave them up to Russia in return for guarantees over its territorial integrity and sovereignty. This was even supported by the USA that they give up their nuclear arsenal in return for guarantees from the US.

What a mistake that turned out to be.

They should have kept them.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:34 pm

A Ukrainian military unit has reportedly told the invading Russian force to “go fuck themselves” before fighting to the very last man.

The impending guerrilla war will make Russia’s 80s adventures look like a picnic.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Londonrake » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:38 pm

Paphitis wrote:Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons. It gave them up to Russia in return for guarantees over its territorial integrity and sovereignty. This was even supported by the USA that they give up their nuclear arsenal in return for guarantees from the US.

What a mistake that turned out to be.

They should have kept them.


At one point, when the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine I think was the third largest nuclear armed nation in the world. Not only that but they had some of the best nuclear weapon R&D and production facilities.

The Budapest Memorandum. December 1994.

"1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_w ... nd_Ukraine

A bit like:

https://www.euronews.com/2022/01/27/rus ... top-eu-dip

https://tass.com/politics/1406765

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022 ... de-ukraine

Russia denies. All "anti-Russian theatrics" of course.
Last edited by Londonrake on Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:41 pm

Joining NATO is easier said than done. You need to be accepted and any member has the right of veto.

Another condition is that there can be no territorial dispute in the country attempting to join NATO.

Cyprus for instance has zero chance of joining NATO.

Ukraine has virtually zero chance as well as Germany and France vetoed Ukraine.

So this isn’t about NATO in my view. This is about Russian expansion which makes this war all the more dangerous as there are implications for other European countries as well, including NATO members. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, and Hungary come to mind.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Paphitis » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:46 pm

Londonrake wrote:
Paphitis wrote:Ukraine doesn't have nuclear weapons. It gave them up to Russia in return for guarantees over its territorial integrity and sovereignty. This was even supported by the USA that they give up their nuclear arsenal in return for guarantees from the US.

What a mistake that turned out to be.

They should have kept them.


At one point, when the Soviet Union collapsed, Ukraine I think was the third largest nuclear armed nation in the world. Not only that but they had some of the best nuclear weapon R&D and development facilities.

The Budapest Memorandum. December 1994.

"1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_w ... nd_Ukraine

A bit like:

https://www.euronews.com/2022/01/27/rus ... top-eu-dip

https://tass.com/politics/1406765

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022 ... de-ukraine

Russia denies. All "anti-Russian theatrics" of course.


The country that has come out on top in a moral sense here is definitely Ukraine.

They acted in good faith, and for the betterment of peace and stability.

The world has a debt to Ukraine to say the least.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Kikapu » Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:30 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Another condition is that there can be no territorial dispute in the country attempting to join NATO.

Cyprus for instance has zero chance of joining NATO.
.

Cyprus does not have a territorial dispute as it is a full member of the UN and the EU, the whole island.

What Cyprus has is an illegal occupation on part of it’s territory, which is why it was able to become an EU member because it does not have a territorial dispute. :wink:

The only reason Cyprus cannot join NATO at this point is because Turkey as an illegal occupier will reject it as a NATO member and not because Cyprus has a territorial dispute. :wink:
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Londonrake » Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:31 pm

Kikapu wrote::The only reason Cyprus cannot join NATO at this point is because Turkey as an illegal occupier will reject it as a NATO member and not because Cyprus has a territorial dispute. :wink:


That's true. All 30 members of NATO have to unanimously agree upon the membership of applicants. Which is why Ukraine wasn't really going anywhere with theirs anytime soon. Both Germany and France had significant reservations about their joining. Like the latest conspiracy theory that they're trying to acquire nuclear weapons it's a load of anti-Ukraine theatrics. Aka "bollocks" - as Black Adder would say.
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Maximus » Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:52 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Maximus wrote:It looks like the Ukrainians are ready to talk with the Russians about keeping the countries status neutral and not seek to join NATO.


And it won't make any difference.

NATO was just the excuse. The real reason is expansionism and re-creating the former USSR.


Is it?

So how come we only go and "liberate" Arabs?
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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby repulsewarrior » Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:04 pm

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Re: Ukrainian Issue

Postby Maximus » Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:06 pm

Paphitis wrote:
You are wrong Maximus because such an attitude would be very destructive to universal principles that little states, all states, have the right to determine their own destiny either within NATO and the EU or outside of NATO and EX. And that just doesn't only apply to the EU and NATO but in everything.

You can't for example have a country like Turkey threaten a country like Cyprus because Cyprus wanted to join the EU. It is their right to join the EU.

Secondly, no parent wants to see their child killed in a war. But on the other hand, I would also be a very proud parent if I saw my child in an Australian Military uniform serving their country, or even is a US Military uniform serving the US if they become US citizens in some years time.

If I was a Ukrainian Parent, living this nightmare, I would obviously be first in line helping to defend my country, and my children will be behind me. If anyone must die, I will be first. Obviously, this doesn't make me some-kind of hero behind my keyboard. I certainly do not want to die and will take every step not to and I'll certainly take every stop so that my children don't die either. But sometimes, drastic measures are called for and the expectation is that the entire community makes massive sacrifices as a whole to help defend the country.

As you would no doubt be aware, when a country is invaded and occupied. you can potentially lose everything. Your house, property and of course the well-being of your family.


Like I said, I agree with your sentiments, but little states need help from bigger outside powers and it seems that we, in the west, only go and "liberate" Arabs.
Last edited by Maximus on Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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