Cyprus-Forum.com

[pumpernickle]

Jersey Schmersey, who cares, its tiny. And its put to good use deterring the enemy you have made, . Be thankful a real, proper army is at hand.

Better 50% of a country than 0%, and that's what it would have been, Cyprus minus British bases, and thats what it could be if they go.
Like the turks give a flying rats ass about EU protocol.

[Simon]

And its put to good use deterring the enemy you have made, you useless bloody lot of imbeciles. Be thankful a real, proper army is at hand.

You must be joking. Yeah, it really deterred the Turkish army didn't it???

[pumpernickle]

Er.....from taking over Cyprus Lock, Stock, the f****ing lot??? Yes it did actually. Like I say, better 50% than nought.

What country in history ever stepped in and totally defended tooth and claw another country for no discernable benefits to the home state anyway?? none. Why get involved in a bloody battle and save soon-to-be-enosised Greek Cyprus from the furious Turkish army? To what end?

If anyone should have helped out, it should have been the motherland. Some hope the old Hellenic Alliance was then, when needed.

[Simon]

Er.....from taking over Cyprus Lock, Stock, the f****ing lot??? Yes it did actually. Like I say, better 50% than nought.

It was not Britain that stopped Turkey going any further, but the USA. Secondly, they took the part of Cyprus around one of the bases anyway. So I really do not think that was the issue that would have stopped them. Anyway, they could never have taken the whole of Cyprus, because how could they have justified taking over all of it, with a population of 18%. Further, if they would have tried to take all of it, it would have resulted in a certain war against Greece. Another reason, is that where would you have put all the GCs? Its one thing kicking 200,000 out of their homes and moving them to the south, but if you take all of it, where can you put them? So you see, it was other issues that stopped them, not so much the bases. I mean, Britain could still have kept her bases with Turkey controlling the island anyway.

Why get involved in a bloody battle and save soon-to-be-enosised Greek Cyprus from the furious Turkish army? To what end?

Er, maybe because they had a legal obligation to. You ever thought of that...

If anyone should have helped out, it should have been the motherland. Some hope the old Hellenic Alliance was then, when needed.

I totally agree, a mix of cowardness and USA and British pressure stopped them.

[macketterry]

Simon, here's my advice to you: get a world map and locate Cyprus; then look at the rest of the world map and compare the size of this tiny little place against some of its neighbours and then again compare against the other big nations in the world.

Then think about your days at school and how unfair it was that the biggest / toughest /best looking kid got the girls or most of the friends or bullied whoever he liked. This is life and your bleatings about treaty this and resolution that are all imaterial because laws are made and broken by the powerful when it suits them - it's called the law of the jungle or the survival of the fittest.

Once you learn this law you will be momentarily depressed that your dreams have been shattered but ultimately liberated to know the truth and you can plan your life accordingly.

[Simon]

Then think about your days at school and how unfair it was that the biggest / toughest /best looking kid got the girls or most of the friends or bullied whoever he liked. This is life and your bleatings about treaty this and resolution that are all imaterial because laws are made and broken by the powerful when it suits them - it's called the law of the jungle or the survival of the fittest.

Once you learn this law you will be momentarily depressed that your dreams have been shattered but ultimately liberated to know the truth and you can plan you life accordingly.

This is life, so are you saying that it is OK then? Murders happen in life. Should we stop punishing murderers because that is life?

Are you saying to those people who once fought against slavery, that they should not have, because back then 'that was life, just accept it.' Did the people of USA think that when they were a colony? The British are more powerful, lets just accept it? Indeed, what about Cyprus. With your attitude we should have said, leave the British, they are harder, so they can do what they like. But No, we fought them, and they, in the end wanted to leave. Your pathetic attitude will only be seized upon by cowards. The mighty do not stay mighty forever.

[macketterry]

Then think about your days at school and how unfair it was that the biggest / toughest /best looking kid got the girls or most of the friends or bullied whoever he liked. This is life and your bleatings about treaty this and resolution that are all imaterial because laws are made and broken by the powerful when it suits them - it's called the law of the jungle or the survival of the fittest.

Once you learn this law you will be momentarily depressed that your dreams have been shattered but ultimately liberated to know the truth and you can plan you life accordingly.

This is life, so are you saying that it is OK then? Murders happen in life. Should we stop punishing murderers because that is life?

Are you saying to those people who once fought against slavery, that they should not have, because back then 'that was life, just accept it.' Did the people of USA think that when they were a colony? The British are more powerful, lets just accept it? Indeed, what about Cyprus. With your attitude we should have said, leave the British, they are harder, so they can do what they like. But No, we fought them, and they, in the end wanted to leave. Your pathetic attitude will only be seized upon by cowards. The mighty do not stay mighty forever.

Yes, murders do happen and sometimes the perpertrator goes unpunished - and that goes for Greek, Turkish, British or any murderer sometimes. I'm not making moral judgements - the opposite - explaining the cold, hard realities.

Your black slave analogy hardly fits, does it? Are you saying that Greek Cypriots are a brutalised down-trodden underclass lacking in access to the vote, education and other rights? Greek Cypriots are the co-conspirators in the whole mess which is Cyprus and yet they enjoy a well-above average standard of living compared with EU standards.

Yes, you managed to get the UK to relinquish its total control of the island but your power did not extend to driving them out completely - the bases exist. Again this was the law of the jungle - the UK recognised their limitations in controlling a restless population and Cyprus recognised its limitations in being able to snuff out the world powers' vital interests without risking unpredictable repurcussions.

You are right - the mighty do not stay mighty forever - as can be seen in the decline and fall of all the great empires in history. But to equate this with Cyprus eventually dictating to whichever new superpowers replace the existing ones in the future is delusional. You will just end up with a different pimp.

My advice remains the same: look at the big boys' interests and see if yours are compatible. If they are, BINGO! You are in a great position. If not, you have to play the game accordingly and recognise your limitations.

It seems that Greece and Greek Cyprus are deluding themselves at the moment.

[Sotos]

You will just end up with a different pimp

Have you thought that it is better to have us as allies instead of being our pimps? When the other pimp will start gaining power and you will be trying to hold your power we will have a choice of pimps. Wouldn't you want us to choose you instead of the other one? Maybe this other one will be your pimp as well in the end. You thought of that?

[rotate]

What would have been the reaction of the Greek Cypriot population to a British intervention at the time of the coup in 1974.

Would the forceful removal by the British of EOKA 'B', renegade National Guard elements and Greek regular army insurgents have been welcomed, bearing in mind that this would have resulted in the former colonial power killing some if not all of 'our boys' and harking back to pre-independence days during the national struggle for Enosis?

If the British have intervened and overcome the coupists resulting in the re-installment of President Makarios would this have meant that elements of the National Guard along with EOKA 'B' supporters would have been prosecuted for treason and imprisoned pending trial and who would have guarded against their escape, the British?
Would any surviving Greek Army Officers/units have been rounded up killed or placed in POW camps and could this have resulted in a state of war existing between Britain and Greece, remembering that Greece was not a democracy at that time and dictatorships generally welcome an external enemy to cement their power and rally their fellow countrymen around the flag?

Given that the British did not do any of the above but had moved to stop the Turkish Occupation and fought alongside the coupists the National Guard and the Greek forces against the Turkish military would this have given credence to the coupists aim of union with Greece and would Britain then have found herself at war with Turkey?

Would the Soviet Block forces then have moved into arena acting independently or in alliance either with Greece Turkey Britain or a combination of any two of the former three?

If the coup had been successfull what would have happened to the Turkish Cypriots, supporters of Cyprus independence and Communists. Did they need protection or was it not neccessary?

My personal opinion is that my country, Britain should have intervened at the time of the coup and understand that many, perhaps all Greek Cypriots believe that Britain was partly or wholly responsible for the coup and the subsequent Turkish actions. This opinion does not negate the responsibility of others including the Cypriots for what happened. My opinion might be completely different had I not married a Cypriot and lost a home. If I were of another generation and had no personal involvement in what happened here I possibly would have been completely against British involvement in Cyprus as it was against involvement in the first Gulf war, Afganistan and the Iraq war having no desire for either me or my sons to die for any nationalistic jingoism, somebody elses democracy or oil be it vegetable or mineral

[Simon]

My personal opinion is that my country, Britain should have intervened at the time of the coup and understand that many, perhaps all Greek Cypriots believe that Britain was partly or wholly responsible for the coup and the subsequent Turkish actions. This opinion does not negate the responsibility of others including the Cypriots for what happened.

I agree with you.

Your black slave analogy hardly fits, does it?

Don't you even try to understand what I am saying. I am not equating slavery with Cyprus, I am just saying that your attitude of letting the big boys do what they like is one I will never accept. It is one which people in the past never accepted (and this is where the slave analogy etc came in) and one which people should not accept today.

In today's world, we are supposed to live by justice and human rights. Are you saying that we should give that up aswell, if the bigger powers want us to?

Yes, you managed to get the UK to relinquish its total control of the island but your power did not extend to driving them out completely - the bases exist.

One thing at a time. If the GCs had your attitude, the British would probably still have the island today.

You will just end up with a different pimp.

Yes and maybe one much more pro-Cyprus.

My advice remains the same: look at the big boys' interests and see if yours are compatible. If they are, BINGO! You are in a great position. If not, you have to play the game accordingly and recognise your limitations.

I agree, but this wasn't really your original advice was it. I do not call negotiating with Britain over the removal of one of the bases exceeding limitations - ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY HAVE ALREADY OFFERED ONE TO US!