Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

You have become a lot more reasonable over the years Erolz, and I commend you for that,

From my perspective, and in this case I do think my perspective carries more weight than any one else's, my level of 'reasonableness' has not really changed over time. What has changed is my (personal) understanding and perspective. If anything in general terms I am probably a bit less reasonable today at age of 57 than I was at the age of 37 when I chose to make Cyprus the place where I would live.

but the occupation stills exists, the TC's still demand unrealistic colonial apartheid inflated rights and shares. They still expect to keep what they stole. They still undermine the island and give it away to Turkey.......They still use Turkey as their barking dog or be as a Turkish puppet....

Not all TC want this. Not me. Not others. Not even all those who support solutions that do have ethnic based protections / privileges. Imo what individual GC need to do is seek to behave in ways that produce a greater statistical chance of increasing the number of TC who think like me and not ways that decrease that chance. It is what I think you, as an individual should choose to do but see little sign that you are from the limited and distorting lens of this forum, which is the way I get to 'see' you.

The GC's want a unitary state, with democracy, all the four freedoms, no foreign troops, no Turkish settlers, no BBF's and all the anachronistic divisive stuff, because one is this and that.

That is the reality mate.

I am sorry Maximus but imo that is demonstrably not the 'reality' today, right now. It is for me just a fact that I as a TC, is not treated equally by the RoC as GC are. Today, to take one example, I am not treated by the RoC in the same way as a GC when I try to seek my rights as a Cypriot to a passport. I am systematically treated differently for no other reason than I am TC and not GC. The idea that if TC had never objected to being a 'unitary, democratic Cyprus' in 1960 after the end of millenias of foreign rule, everything would be rosy in the RoC today, is not one I subscribe to. I think it is undeniable that if we had done that in 1960, then Cyprus as a sovereign nation, state and nation-state, would simple not exist at all today. Nor do I believe that if we as TC just chose to support a unitary state, there would not be no discrimination based on ethnicity in Cyprus. If we want a solution then we have to start with WILL. If the will is for a unitary state without discrimination then to my mind, by definition, that can ONLY be achieved together, by effort and change and choice by Cypriots on ALL sides. imo.

[Maximus]

You cant have both Erolz,

You cant have the "TRNC" and rights in the RoC.

The Gc's were ethnically cleansed from the north, how equally are they being treated by the TC?

You expect an RoC passport but you wont even let a GC fisherman take one fish out of the sea in the north..

You want your property in the south and to keep what was stolen in the north.

Yes, you have to change....

(I am not saying you personally)

[erolz66]

You cant have both Erolz,

You cant have the "TRNC" and rights in the RoC.

Can the RoC claim to be the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots and the discriminate against me as an individual TC because the TRNC exists today by no result of any individual action by me ? Can you reasonably expect me to believe I would not be discriminated if the TRNC did not exist, given the reality when it does I AM discriminated against (illegally it might be added but with relative impunity non the less) ?

The Gc's were ethnically cleansed from the north, how equally are they being treated by the TC?

Am I suggesting that a unified Cyprus under the TRNC is a route to solution ? The very existence of the TRNC was based on ethnic division of Cypriots. It does not and had never claimed to represent all Cypriots equally without discrimination. I am suggesting a unified Cyprus under the RoC as a route to solution. The RoC does claim to represent all Cypriots without discrimination but it does not live up to those claims. The more that it does live up to that claim, even with the existence of the TRNC, the greater the chance that more TC could / would see a future unified single state without ethnic protections / privileges as a desirable future.

You expect an RoC passport but you wont evel let a GC fisherman take one fish out of the sea in the north..

(I am not saying you personally)

This conflating and crossing of and between the individual and the 'state' (or 'pseudo state') is a common phenomenon and one that I personally think is a block to better understanding. I as an individual expect to be treated the same as any other Cypriot when seeking my rights as such from the RoC state, that claims to be the sole legitimate government of all Cypriots. The reality is it does not treat me fairly and equally today. The (or my) reality is had TC on mass trusted it to do so back in 1960, then Cyprus just would not exist today as a nation state at all. Yet you seem to expect me me to believe that without doubt it would do so tomorrow if only 'we' did this that and the other and you do nothing different. Well I am sorry that is not imo opinion a 'reasonable' expectation from 'us'.

Say to me as an individual - yes the RoC discriminates against me today but that is because of what my ancestors did and the situation today so I should expect and accept that and also not have any concerns that such might continue in a unified Cyprus without any ethnic based exceptions.

or say to me - yes the RoC discriminates against me today but despite everything that has happened you think it should NOT do so if we truly want to find a route where a majority of TC support a unitary Cyprus without ethnic exceptions.

Which you chose to say to me is YOUR choice and ENTIRELY under your control alone. I know which choice of yours I think has a better chance of leading to what we all say we want. Which choice you as an individual make, makes a real difference imo. Yet all I 'see' (through the limited and distortions of the forum) is you choosing to say the former and not the later as if that makes no difference to the chance of finding a route to a unified Cyprus and as if you have no personal agency at all in this matter.

[MR-from-NG]

NG, the only reason you’re complaining about the situation today is because the “TRNC” hasn’t worked for you, but ask thousands of others who have benefited from it...

I can only speak for myself and those that I know well, I mean really well. You are wrong. You may read papers and watch TC news. It's all an act. Without Turkey these incompetent cunts would starve. They can't bite the hand that feeds them.

Erol, seems happy across the roadblock… Iceman too!

Unlike you, I suspect they appreciate the EOKA heroes who delivered 37% of Cyprus on a plate to Turkey!

It wasn't the EOKA though that delivered 37% of Cyprus on a plate to Turkey,

That is a Turkish excuse,

TAKSIM was there too and that came through invasion, and ethnic cleansing.

Dont blame the GC for the war crimes of a rogue state and her affiliates in Cyprus. They are responsible for that.

ENOSIS wasn't a crime that the GC's have to pay for for 46 years.

You are forever looking for a cover up for your mistakes Max. GR is giving an accurate description of the situation and you are warning him and in a way asking him to lie. This is exactly how your books are written for children to read and be brainwashed in your schools. I said a few posts earlier and I'll say it again. You dug your own graves and now you're denying it and lying to poor innocent school kids and portraying the TC's as the enemy and murderers. Not nice and not fair. Man up and accept your mistakes and stop distorting history.

[MR-from-NG]

Max, can you explain why you edited your post? Are you man enough, honest enough to edit it back to its original wording please? The original of your post would've proven my point without doubt.

[erolz66]

What I have come to understand, after 20 years of living in Cyprus and engaging on forums like this and in countless other ways with Cypriots of all kinds and all backgrounds all over Cyprus, at the highest zoomed out macro and simplistic level is the following.

If we genuinely want to find a route to a better Cyprus, a unified Cyprus, not just in 'name only' but in actual reality then the only hope of achieving that is to chose as individuals to accept and own the communal 'blame' for where we are today, together, as Cypriots. There is no route to unity I can see by just seeking to blame one side or the other alone or in majority. Unity means 'together'. Together we fucked up and divided Cyprus and Cypriots on ethnic lines. We can only change that together, by choosing change together.


80, 100, 120 years of blaming the 'other' side, of claiming to be only the victim and never the perpetrator has got us where we are today and continuation of such behaviour, as individuals, will never lead to unity. Can not lead to unity. We need to chose to try something different if we want different outcomes.

I have never claimed to be good or quick at gaining better understanding vs anyone else or on average. I do claim to never stop trying to seek better understanding. This where my 20 years of seeking better understanding of the Cypob has led me so far.

[erolz66]

Ok it is late and I am streuggling to keep up here and post are changing and appearing quicker than I can keep up.

What is be Cypriot?

Indeed what does it mean to 'be Cypriot' ? A simple sounding question with no simple answer but it has to mean something other than just anyone who is living in Cyprus is 'Cypriot'. I personally choose to believe that one of the cores of being Cypriot is to be the product of a certain mix of cultures and influences over hundreds of years and that this mix is a required element in 'being Cypriot' because without it we are then 'just' Turks or Greeks who live in Cyprus. I freely choose this definition of what it means to 'be Cypriot' as an individual not because any external force compels me to do so. I freely choose it BECAUSE I believe such a choice can only increase the chances of finding a route to the kind of Cyprus I dream of and aspire to pass on to future generations of Cypriots.

I am what I am and that is all I am.

Do you have agency Max ? Is there something stopping you from freely making your own CHOICE as to what it means to 'be Cypriot' ?

That shouldn't be a crime and Turkey shouldn't be dictating or guaranteeing whatever being Cypriot is (or whatever she thinks that is) by occupying a third of Cyprus and trying to impose apartheid structures.

You are so fundamentally misunderstanding what I am trying to convey here that it almost hurts. Am I saying you must accept my definition of what it means to be Cypriot and if you refuse then Turkey will make you accept it or you will suffer the consequences ? NO. No. No this is NOT what I am saying at all. This is nothing to do with Turkey. This is about you and the choices you can and do freely make. You as an individual.

You can and should and do freely choose to accept my kind of definition of what it means to be Cypriot or not. You can chose a definition of what it means to 'be Cypriot' that has no requirement for any Turkish cultural element at all if you want. It seems you in effect do make this choice about what it meas to 'be Cypriot' ? You can also make different choices, freely as an individual if you want. It is entirely up to you. You have agency and choice and it is all yours. Can you really not see how which choice you make in turn and to some degree affects the chance that a majority of TC will strive for or against a unitary Cyprus with no ethnic exceptions ?

Or to try and put it another way.

What you want from me as a TC is to accept a unitary solution with no ethnic based exceptions at all and just trust, despite the history, that I will not be discriminated against just because I am TC. OK fine I will accept that. In return what I would like from you is to freely choose to believe that the Turkish part of my cultural ancestry is not something alien and antithetical to 'Cypriotness' that you will graciously accept and tolerate even though it is 'not Cypriot' but instead is to some material degree an inherent part of what it means to be Cypriot just as your Greekness is also part (but not the totality) of what it means to 'be Cypriot'.

Can you really not understand why your unwillingness to give me even the smallest degree of what I would like from you can only result in you increasing the fear that I might be discriminated against in a unitary Cyprus without ethnic protections? Can you not see that connection between the choices you make, can and do freely choose to make, and how I imagine how the future might be in a unitary Cyprus without any ethnic based protections ?

Sorry, but structure is the, if not a major part of problem.....

What is cause and what is effect ? I maintain that the structures we have today are the effect not the cause. The structure in 1960 was the effect. I maintain that the cause of these structures is because after millennia of being ruled by those who were not Cypriot and we finally had a chance to rule ourselves we CHOSE division over unity. You with enosis and us with taksim. Our WILL was for futures that were divided based on if you were TC or GC and the result of that WILL was divisive structures, be they 1960 or 74. Could only lead to such. If we want different structures in the future then that starts with a change of WILL - on both sides. Has to start with such. Can only start with such. As individuals the simple and clear expression of such a will is to CHOOSE freely as an individual to define what it means to be Cypriot in a way that requires and needs the 'other' community. That to me is a kind of definition of unity at a fundamental level.

[Paphitis]

OK, the following information is from an official source whose identity will not be divulged.

It’s true that the Hellenic Navy is performing extremely well. Turkish Submarines are operating in the East Med and Aegean. Greek Submarines as well.

So far, at least 5 Turkish Submarines have been detected with Greek Anti Submarine Warfare Helicopters, Orions and Anti Sub Warfare Helicopters. Turkish Navy has not been able to detect a single Greek Sub.

Make of it what you will. So, Greeks are running rings around the Turks.

Been talking to Walter Mitty again? You have been dreaming for the last 600 years, keep dreaming. You honestly think the Turkish military are so ill equipped that even Greece would be a superior power? 600 years of fantasy will continue for the next 6 centuries and nothing will change dick brain. Eddie is a cunt we all know but you are not insulting him you are insulting the whole nation.

There are no dreams on Greece's part other than the dream of peace and stability. I don't want a war with Turkey. Remember, it's Turkey doing this and bringing us to the brink, not Greece.

I don't want Greece, or Cyprus to be under threat of war.

You people have to be the most STUPID people in the world. It's actually YOU that has the dreams of conquest. First, steel the EEZ and resources of Greece and Cyprus, and to facilitate, take a few islands. Then a few more until you are on the doorsteps of Athens. That's YOUR DREAM.

My dream is for a peaceful and stable Cyprus with its territory intact from Kyrenia to Paphos.

And for a peaceful and stable Greece with its territory intact from Kastelorizo to Corfu. Nothing more, nothing less.

But you people are STUPID and want this war. If Greece must defend itself, you will get this war as well.

Stop talking out of your arse you kangaroo shagging cunt.

Is that all you can come up with? You accuse me of dreaming of war when in actual fact I only talk about SELF DEFENCE. I dream of Greece and Cyprus not really requiring to defend their seas and territorial integrity from what is in actual fact a rogue and terrorist behaving Turkey.

It's YOU that wants this war, not me.

But you're not talking about SELF DEFENCE. Your're claiming superiority and the capability of annihilating the Turkish military because a man which you can't divulge his name told you so. Grow up for fucks sake. Turks don't want war. That is fact, why don't you read some Turkish news. Yes, they want the EEZ resolved but not by war.

Yes, a military that is threatening Greece's EEZ, territorial seas and territorial integrity.

My word! If it comes to it, then yeh, you are 100%! I hope Greece send your submarines and ships to the bottom of the sea.

That is SELF DEFENCE!

This is why Greece has spent billions on arms and has a well trained military. To DEFEND Greece from Kastelorizo to Corfu.

And you think Mehmetcik is playing backgammon all day long? If your boys are well trained Mehmetcik has and is training 10 times harder. You really must get to grips with reality. I know the mentallity, my dads bigger and stronger than your dad. My big brother can beat your big brother. Yes, you're behaving like an eight year old.

I'm not one to belittle any opponent. That is coming from the Turkish side.

All I know is Greece is defending it's islands, its seas and its homeland. And it is more than capable to send your mehmetciks packing for Paradise.

[Paphitis]

So for 350 odd years the Ottomans laid Cyprus to ruins until in 1878 when the Brits had not only liberated Cyprus from Ottoman trash, but had also embarked on the modernization of Cyprus leading to jobs and prosperity for many.

The tables had turned... Ottoman remnants had withdrawn into tiny enclaves and the bright future belonged to the native Cypriots.

But unfortunately my foolish compatriots were too stupid and too blind to appreciate such blessings... and they set about their own little plan to return to Ottoman slavery again which they code-named “Enosis”.

The "ingenious" plan went something like this...

“Let us unite our little village with that other greater village called Greece, thereby angering Turkey so that they may return to rule over us again!”

The Enosis plan was eventually quite successful, converting 37% of Cyprus back into Ottoman trash by 1974; the Cyprus donkey had won first prize at the local derby!

So there you have it... a concise summary of the modern history of Cyprus.

That’s a pretty hard-hitting but succinct analysis. Well, in my humble opinion, “speaking” as an often despised Outlander of course. I know, I know..............”You can piss off”.

It's literally correct.

Our friggin idiots decided to start a war with the UK for ENOSIS. Having the British in Cyprus was literally a major blessing and Cypriots had so much in common with them anyway so they should have just been patient. We pissed it up the wall sadly.

[Paphitis]

What we did to the Brits was just regrettable.

Yes, they were a colonial power. Yeh, they themselves were in it for themselves. But they never really hurt us did they? They provided roads and infrastructure for us as well. They basically let us be.

But somehow, they were turned to an enemy.

Today, in Hong Kong, there are demonstrations by Chinese Hong Kongers in the hundreds of thousands against Chy-na. Ask them if they want to return to being a British possession.

All of them would say YES in a heartbeat. Are they smarter or dumber than us?