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[Paphitis]

1,000,000 people in the US die from smoking
70,000 people in the US die from the flu.
40,000 people in the US die from ODing.

I don't know how many die from mental health or suicide. I'm sure the figures are available.

Unemployment in the US is said to be 18%. It's a proven fact that with each percentage point of unemployment, the death rate from suicide increases by a certain amount. Not a small amount but the baseline is something like 45,000 suicides per year.

So this business about going into total lock down needs to be put into perspective. Going full hog and saving X amount of lives from Chy-na Virus isn't exactly saving lives.

I mean are we to die from Chy-na Virus, or Mental Health, or starvation.

The USA is geared to work. Oil wells can't exactly shut down. It costs more to shut them down than to keep extracting it, hence the price of oil collapsing.

Sop these lock downs are on their death bed now what many countries reducing the restrictions over time. Even with a second wave, total lock down isn't really a viable option for many countries. It doesn't save any lives when you are just changing the cause of their death from Chy-na Virus to suicide or mental health.

In the end, if a vaccine isn't found, the world needs to learn to live with Chy-na Virus now.

[Paphitis]

Problem is that we will be going into lock down for any virus including a bad strain of flu that might come out and kill just as many people of more.

Exactly! They can throw us into lockdown for pretty much any reason from now on because Bedwetters like GR and Erlolz love it sooooo much...

I would love for all countries to have been as prepared for this outbreak as SK was. To date they have had 262 deaths and have had no need for nation wide generic lock downs. The UK has had 34,546 deaths and has shut down huge swathes of the economy. I would like countries to be as prepared for when there is another outbreak of a novel virus of lesser or greater magnitude. If it is in 10 years or 50 years or 100 years I would like them to be prepared.

Seems like plain common sense to me if your priority is protecting life spans or protecting the economy. What would you prefer CG ? That the UK ignore this virus whatever the cost in lives or to the economy might be and ignore any future such novel viruses ? Is that what you would like ? Even though we know as fact that not ignoring such, being prepared has to date resulted in the prepared countries having seen less shorten lifespans and less damage to their economies to degrees of multiple orders of magnitude ?

Erolz!

The real success here is Australia. 100 deaths in total and 7000 detected cases and only 600 active cases as of today.

I thought I would just add that for you because you seem to have disagreed when I was telling you a few months ago when Australia was flattening the curve.

Both have not had a general lock down.

Only over 70s were in lock down, over 60s with diabetes and over 50s if you're Aboriginal. That's the Swedish model with the exception that you can still go to a pub, cafe and restaurant in Sweden. We can too now, with social distancing.

I don't ever want to see such an over reaction ever again.

There really is no treason to continue with any restrictions now, apart from restricting international travel. We should be moving on back to as much normality as possible. If there is a second wave, then it becomes obvious to me that lock downs are NOT the solution and that perhaps Sweden was right all along.

We can't stay in lock down for 2 years because the aftermath of such a thing would become a lot more catastrophic to the general populace.

So chose your death. Do we die from Chy-na Virus, starvation or mental health?

We are not getting the full statistics of the total devastation either. Where are the statistics of how many people have lost their homes, or have committed suicide? My general interpretation is that the big end of town do not care that 2 million or more people could commit suicide. That's the real pandemic.

My general interpretation is that there could be an underlying agenda. Ruin the economy and become dystopian. Or to make Gates 100s of Billions. Are people who call this man a humanitarian also aware that gates was a regular visitor to Epstein's Orgy island on his private jet? Not insinuating anything about what he might have got up to, but these people and others like Prince Andrew need to be held accountable and thoroughly investigated, along with Bill Clinton and many more.

So many powerful people involved and then all of a sudden Epstein supposedly committed suicide when all the cameras in the US Federal Prison somehow died. how friggin convenient.

It's very healthy to ask questions because many times the devil comes dressed as a lamb.

[erolz66]

The real success here is Australia. 100 deaths in total and 7000 detected cases and only 600 active cases as of today.

Yes Australia has done well but it is behind SK on every metric when considering per head of population. More deaths per head than SK, more positive per head then SK and it locked down more severely than SK. These are just facts.

There really is no treason to continue with any restrictions now, apart from restricting international travel.

SK did not blanket ban flights from whole countries either at any time.

We should be moving on back to as much normality as possible.

For the majority of people in SK they never left normality.

If there is a second wave, then it becomes obvious to me that lock downs are NOT the solution and that perhaps Sweden was right all along.

SK did not lock down at all other than briefly in one localised area. Before speculating about a second wave try starting with is already know to date because it has already happened. To date Sweden with total population around a fifth of SK has already seen 14 times as many deaths as SK. The only reason Sweden might see deaths as low as SK in a second wave is because so many people died in the first wave already. There is no logical reason to imagine SK will not manage to control 2nd or 3rd or 4th waves at least as well as it has managed the first one and much reason to imagine it will do so even more effectively over time, time during which treatment of those who catch the virus are constantly improving.

We can't stay in lock down for 2 years because the aftermath of such a thing would become a lot more catastrophic to the general populace.

I will try saying if for you one more time and slowly as you seem to have issues understanding basic facts. South Korea NEVER used lock down, never blanket bans flights from whole countries and STILL managed to keep deaths to date down to 262 vs a total population of 50 million.

So chose your death. Do we die from Chy-na Virus, starvation or mental health?

I chose to try and emulate the country that has managed to date to have less deaths per head of population than any where else, with less economic damage than any where else. Because I am not an idiot or blinded and driven by political dogma and rhetoric.

Where are the statistics of how many people have lost their homes, or have committed suicide?

Japan has recorded a significant drop in suicides in the month of April. Around 40% down from pre covid-19 levels. This is a fact against which all your hyped up speculations should be measured , because it is a fact and your hyped up speculations are hyped up speculation.

My general interpretation is that there could be an underlying agenda.

You could not interpret your way out of a paper bag or a zip file.

Are people who call this man a humanitarian also aware that gates was a regular visitor to Epstein's Orgy island on his private jet?

I am able to distinguish what is made up fiction and what is not.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN22R2C4
https://nypost.com/2020/05/15/bill-gate ... epeatedly/

but these people and others like Prince Andrew need to be held accountable and thoroughly investigated, along with Bill Clinton and many more.

The facts are Trump has more historic connection with Epstein than Bill Gates. It is just a fact. When will you call for Trump's connections to Epstein to be investigated ?

It's very healthy to ask questions because many times the devil comes dressed as a lamb.

Few things are less healthy and more dangerous than people being unable or unwilling to accept or see and separate truth from lies. A good definition of sheeple would be the degree to which someone chooses to believe something that is patently and obviously not true. You are king sheeple by this definition as shown by this post, beginning to end and countless others.

[Kikapu]

1,000,000 people in the US die from smoking
70,000 people in the US die from the flu.
40,000 people in the US die from ODing.

I don't know how many die from mental health or suicide. I'm sure the figures are available.

Unemployment in the US is said to be 18%. It's a proven fact that with each percentage point of unemployment, the death rate from suicide increases by a certain amount. Not a small amount but the baseline is something like 45,000 suicides per year.

So this business about going into total lock down needs to be put into perspective. Going full hog and saving X amount of lives from Chy-na Virus isn't exactly saving lives.

I mean are we to die from Chy-na Virus, or Mental Health, or starvation.

The USA is geared to work. Oil wells can't exactly shut down. It costs more to shut them down than to keep extracting it, hence the price of oil collapsing.

Sop these lock downs are on their death bed now what many countries reducing the restrictions over time. Even with a second wave, total lock down isn't really a viable option for many countries. It doesn't save any lives when you are just changing the cause of their death from Chy-na Virus to suicide or mental health.

In the end, if a vaccine isn't found, the world needs to learn to live with Chy-na Virus now.

Of course every action has consequences, directly or indirectly, but sometimes tough actions needs to be taken when dealing with an unknown contagious virus. The lockdown was absolutely necessary to buy time to understand the virus and how to respond to it with the least amount of lives lost. Any responsible government had no choice but to implement some kind of lockdown. Even at present, the lockdowns are only eased little by little as governments are watching the virus. It is easy to double guess actions already taken, but the truth is, we don’t know how bad the situations would have been if no actions were taken by all the countries.

I can equate the above with the grounding of Boeing 737 MAX. After the first crash nothing was done, despite Boeing knowing problems with the MCAS. People were kept in the dark until the second crash few months later, then the whole world took action to ground the plane because people did not feel safe to fly on a plane that at times overrules the pilots and flies to the ground at high speed. The MAX is still grounded after over a year. Has the grounded 737 MAX saved anymore lives since? We don’t know for sure, just as we don’t know for sure if we would have lost more lives if it continued to fly, but actions needed to be taken to play it safe.

Did some workers on the MAX died by being unemployed for various self destructive acts? Most likely. Would it have been prudent to risk flying the MAX so that the MAX workers kept their jobs a little longer until more MAX planes fell to earth killing many hundreds more? Not likely. Actually, Boeing assessed there would be about 12 crashes by the MAX if no action were taken, say about 2,000 lives lost. Was it worth saving 2,000 lives by grounding the MAX or should the grounding not have happened because many thousands more have been affected by losing their jobs financially, socially and psychologically as well as an economic loss for the country?

In life we have to play the cards we have been dealt with if we do not know any better, until we know more. What would the anti lockdown people would say if no action were taken and the health care services collapsed around the world? Would they be blaming their government for not taking such actions? Most likely. In any-case, we are still in the eye of the storm with Covid-19 and it is very premature for anyone to be critical of the lockdowns, especially not knowing what it would have been without the lockdown worldwide.

[Paphitis]

1,000,000 people in the US die from smoking
70,000 people in the US die from the flu.
40,000 people in the US die from ODing.

I don't know how many die from mental health or suicide. I'm sure the figures are available.

Unemployment in the US is said to be 18%. It's a proven fact that with each percentage point of unemployment, the death rate from suicide increases by a certain amount. Not a small amount but the baseline is something like 45,000 suicides per year.

So this business about going into total lock down needs to be put into perspective. Going full hog and saving X amount of lives from Chy-na Virus isn't exactly saving lives.

I mean are we to die from Chy-na Virus, or Mental Health, or starvation.

The USA is geared to work. Oil wells can't exactly shut down. It costs more to shut them down than to keep extracting it, hence the price of oil collapsing.

Sop these lock downs are on their death bed now what many countries reducing the restrictions over time. Even with a second wave, total lock down isn't really a viable option for many countries. It doesn't save any lives when you are just changing the cause of their death from Chy-na Virus to suicide or mental health.

In the end, if a vaccine isn't found, the world needs to learn to live with Chy-na Virus now.

Of course every action has consequences, directly or indirectly, but sometimes tough actions needs to be taken when dealing with an unknown contagious virus. The lockdown was absolutely necessary to buy time to understand the virus and how to respond to it with the least amount of lives lost. Any responsible government had no choice but to implement some kind of lockdown. Even at present, the lockdowns are only eased little by little as governments are watching the virus. It is easy to double guess actions already taken, but the truth is, we don’t know how bad the situations would have been if no actions were taken by all the countries.

I can equate the above with the grounding of Boeing 737 MAX. After the first crash nothing was done, despite Boeing knowing problems with the MCAS. People were kept in the dark until the second crash few months later, then the whole world took action to ground the plane because people did not feel safe to fly on a plane that at times overrules the pilots and flies to the ground at high speed. The MAX is still grounded after over a year. Has the grounded 737 MAX saved anymore lives since? We don’t know for sure, just as we don’t know for sure if we would have lost more lives if it continued to fly, but actions needed to be taken to play it safe.

Did some workers on the MAX died by being unemployed for various self destructive acts? Most likely. Would it have been prudent to risk flying the MAX so that the MAX workers kept their jobs a little longer until more MAX planes fell to earth killing many hundreds more? Not likely. Actually, Boeing assessed there would be about 12 crashes by the MAX if no action were taken, say about 2,000 lives lost. Was it worth saving 2,000 lives by grounding the MAX or should the grounding not have happened because many thousands more have been affected by losing their jobs financially, socially and psychologically as well as an economic loss for the country?

In life we have to play the cards we have been dealt with if we do not know any better, until we know more. What would the anti lockdown people would say if no action were taken and the health care services collapsed around the world? Would they be blaming their government for not taking such actions? Most likely. In any-case, we are still in the eye of the storm with Covid-19 and it is very premature for anyone to be critical of the lockdowns, especially not knowing what it would have been without the lockdown worldwide.

Not a valid comparison as of course an aircraft type must be grounded if their are concerns.

I am not however convinced that the grounding of the B737 MAX is valid and not an over reaction as the MCAS can't over rule the pilots. The issue was more likely to be with the training of pilots and yes, Boeing had some culpability in that as they tried to fudge the training requirements and even downplay them probably as a result of pressure from operators and airlines. Yes the airlines were flexing their muscle demanding that no additional training be required. When we go to the sim, it costs $7000 per hour per crew. A check is done over 2 days for 4 hours each day - a total of $56000 per check per crew. It's expensive business. Each pilot has 2 checks per year. If the MAX was a separate endorsement or required an MCAS component, it would cost some airlines several millions.

The MCAS could have simply be over ridden by switching the STAB TRIM OFF. The pilots were likely to be unaware of this because at one point Boeing didn't even publish it in the Manuals, and then did so with an Air Directive before Ethiopian had their unfortunate accident but they didn't follow up to ensure all airlines were properly training their pilots and amending their FCOMs.

So yeh, there were break downs that led to an accident in all likelihood. But grounding is still very contentious inmho. But that's our industry. We do err on the side of caution in aviation. Can't afford not to.

[Paphitis]

The real success here is Australia. 100 deaths in total and 7000 detected cases and only 600 active cases as of today.

Yes Australia has done well but it is behind SK on every metric when considering per head of population. More deaths per head than SK, more positive per head then SK and it locked down more severely than SK. These are just facts.

There really is no treason to continue with any restrictions now, apart from restricting international travel.

SK did not blanket ban flights from whole countries either at any time.

We should be moving on back to as much normality as possible.

For the majority of people in SK they never left normality.

If there is a second wave, then it becomes obvious to me that lock downs are NOT the solution and that perhaps Sweden was right all along.

SK did not lock down at all other than briefly in one localised area. Before speculating about a second wave try starting with is already know to date because it has already happened. To date Sweden with total population around a fifth of SK has already seen 14 times as many deaths as SK. The only reason Sweden might see deaths as low as SK in a second wave is because so many people died in the first wave already. There is no logical reason to imagine SK will not manage to control 2nd or 3rd or 4th waves at least as well as it has managed the first one and much reason to imagine it will do so even more effectively over time, time during which treatment of those who catch the virus are constantly improving.

We can't stay in lock down for 2 years because the aftermath of such a thing would become a lot more catastrophic to the general populace.

I will try saying if for you one more time and slowly as you seem to have issues understanding basic facts. South Korea NEVER used lock down, never blanket bans flights from whole countries and STILL managed to keep deaths to date down to 262 vs a total population of 50 million.

So chose your death. Do we die from Chy-na Virus, starvation or mental health?

I chose to try and emulate the country that has managed to date to have less deaths per head of population than any where else, with less economic damage than any where else. Because I am not an idiot or blinded and driven by political dogma and rhetoric.

Where are the statistics of how many people have lost their homes, or have committed suicide?

Japan has recorded a significant drop in suicides in the month of April. Around 40% down from pre covid-19 levels. This is a fact against which all your hyped up speculations should be measured , because it is a fact and your hyped up speculations are hyped up speculation.

My general interpretation is that there could be an underlying agenda.

You could not interpret your way out of a paper bag or a zip file.

Are people who call this man a humanitarian also aware that gates was a regular visitor to Epstein's Orgy island on his private jet?

I am able to distinguish what is made up fiction and what is not.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-fact ... SKBN22R2C4
https://nypost.com/2020/05/15/bill-gate ... epeatedly/

but these people and others like Prince Andrew need to be held accountable and thoroughly investigated, along with Bill Clinton and many more.

The facts are Trump has more historic connection with Epstein than Bill Gates. It is just a fact. When will you call for Trump's connections to Epstein to be investigated ?

It's very healthy to ask questions because many times the devil comes dressed as a lamb.

Few things are less healthy and more dangerous than people being unable or unwilling to accept or see and separate truth from lies. A good definition of sheeple would be the degree to which someone chooses to believe something that is patently and obviously not true. You are king sheeple by this definition as shown by this post, beginning to end and countless others.

Australia isn't behind in the metrics with South Korea (except in detected cases per million). Australia is ahead in the death metric. SK has 5 deaths per million whilst Australia has 4 deaths per million.

So, either the Australian population is healthier than the SK population or our Medical Response and health system is better or a combination of both these or some other factors we are not aware of. SK is way out there as a success story, but so is Australia.

In addition, if Australia did not close its borders to whole countries and the world, it could have been bad. About 35% of our cases were from Cruise Ships alone. At one point there were 2 cruise ships in Australian Ports with hundreds of cases onboard and another 9 inbound even after told to turn back to their Port of departure. A lawful request that these 9 ships refused to comply with citing humanitarian grounds. Well, our Navy mobilized and eventually convinced them that Australia was closed and they wouldn't be allowed to dock and they evacuated all Australian Citizens by helicopter onto Australian Warships and they mobilized a Hospital Ship at accept ill patients regardless of nationality if they were critically ill.

Those warships convinced those ships to go back from where they came from.

What pisses me off is the fact that these 9 cruise ships endangered Australian sailors and probably exposed them to Chy-na Virus. These companies should be perm banned forever! And 2 shipping companies are actually facing that.

[erolz66]

Australia isn't behind in the metrics with South Korea (except in detected cases per million). Australia is ahead in the death metric. SK has 5 deaths per million whilst Australia has 4 deaths per million.

You are correct on this. It is behind SK on tested positive numbers and it's lock down was / is more severe than SK

In addition, if Australia did not close its borders to whole countries and the world, it could have been bad.

Yet SK never closed it borders to entire countries. Only to specific regions within countries.

[Paphitis]

Australia isn't behind in the metrics with South Korea (except in detected cases per million). Australia is ahead in the death metric. SK has 5 deaths per million whilst Australia has 4 deaths per million.

You are correct on this. It is behind SK on tested positive numbers and it's lock down was / is more severe than SK

In addition, if Australia did not close its borders to whole countries and the world, it could have been bad.

Yet SK never closed it borders to entire countries. Only to specific regions within countries.

I don't know about being more severe.

Our police are obviously pussy cats. Can't imagine the South Koreans being as docile.

We are able to move around like before, the only difference is our pubs are not open, as well as our cafes and restaurants. Well they are open now.

The only time you feel the full presence of the police as at our airports and travelling. There, you felt the heavy hand of the law and a lot of control to the point you would think we were in a different country and not Australia. One line to check papers and be questioned and then another line for a health check and temperature reading. And those who didn't survive the "selection" were sent to their quarantine address or a 5 star hotel for 14 days. All transfers by the Australian Army.

Our police seem fed up and uninterested outside the airport.

[erolz66]

Australia isn't behind in the metrics with South Korea (except in detected cases per million). Australia is ahead in the death metric. SK has 5 deaths per million whilst Australia has 4 deaths per million.

You are correct on this. It is behind SK on tested positive numbers and it's lock down was / is more severe than SK

In addition, if Australia did not close its borders to whole countries and the world, it could have been bad.

Yet SK never closed it borders to entire countries. Only to specific regions within countries.

I don't know about being more severe.

Our police are obviously pussy cats. Can't imagine the South Koreans being as docile.

We are able to move around like before, the only difference is our pubs are not open, as well as our cafes and restaurants. Well they are open now.

SK never shut bars, restaurants, night clubs at all across the whole country. SK never restricted peoples movements across the whole country. Most people in SK have been free to go about their normal lives through out this entire pandemic to date. They only did these things for a short period in a specific region (the one that got out of control because of the church super spreading event).

[Paphitis]

Australia isn't behind in the metrics with South Korea (except in detected cases per million). Australia is ahead in the death metric. SK has 5 deaths per million whilst Australia has 4 deaths per million.

You are correct on this. It is behind SK on tested positive numbers and it's lock down was / is more severe than SK

In addition, if Australia did not close its borders to whole countries and the world, it could have been bad.

Yet SK never closed it borders to entire countries. Only to specific regions within countries.

I don't know about being more severe.

Our police are obviously pussy cats. Can't imagine the South Koreans being as docile.

We are able to move around like before, the only difference is our pubs are not open, as well as our cafes and restaurants. Well they are open now.

SK never shut bars, restaurants, night clubs at all across the whole country. SK never restricted peoples movements across the whole country. Most people in SK have been free to go about their normal lives through out this entire pandemic to date. They only did these things for a short period in a specific region (the one that got out of control because of the church super spreading event).

And we shouldn't have either.

We wouldn't have had hardly any Chy-na Virus without those Ships.

Closing bars, restaurants, and cafes was a complete over reaction.

It did hardly nothing to reduce Chy-na Virus. What worked for us was our borders.

In fact we could have just had mandatory isolation to all travelers at their expense and we still would not have a problem. So maybe even that was an over reaction. No one is going to travel anyway if you force them into isolation for 14 days unless they absolutely have to. Not ideal conditions for a vacation.

Everyone jumped off the deep end because people believed all the hype and 24/7 Chy-na Virus news cycle. So the people got what they deserve.