Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tim Drayton]

Strange days indeed. I never thought I would find myself on the same page as the religiously minded, but I can find little to fault in the following appeal from a group of Catholics:

https://veritasliberabitvos.info/appeal/

[Robin Hood]

A lot a hot air comments but no one seems to have an answer!

The lock-down is not to save lives it is to cover up the failure of governments to be prepared for such an event. Once this virus struck it was a 100% certainty that virtually everyone was vulnerable as there is no vaccine and there is no antidote. All lockdown was intended to achieve was to prevent thousands dying all at once and negate the need for ‘Bring-out-your-dead’ Army trucks cruising the streets collecting bodies from the pavement and tipping them into mass graves. This is not a good image for a Government when in power and certainly not wanted when the next election comes around!

So they lockdown hardest on the old as they are most vulnerable and keep them alive through total isolation, where possible. The Health service with the help of the Army medical facilities now helps the more useful, younger and fitter citizens to survive. When the infection rate falls low enough, they will abandon lockdown and the old will be released from their prisons ........ and many will most likely die of the virus when they come into contact with those that have built up an immunity.

This is a great economic advantage. Pensioners not only need to be given the pension they have ‘paid-for’ over their working lives but maintenance costs for the old are high as medical problems are more prevalent when bits start wearing out. So, getting rid of the old and the sick without the need for gas chambers and furnaces, certainly has economic advantages? If a few thousand younger people die because they have medical conditions (which also needs treatment) are obese and are heavy smokers and/or drinkers .............. then that is obviously a bonus to the economy.

As a result the cost of the NHS can be kept low, the wealth of the pensioners is released to the younger generation and the burden of pensions is slashed! This means no more austerity ..... the banks and the top 0.1% will carry on getting richer and richer and the military build up for the next wars(s) will go a pace. Destroying the economy creates more jobless which should push wages/salaries down.

Now this idea of ‘helicopter’ money is raising its head to pay people to spend into the economy to get the economy moving again! What a good ides, why didn’t I think of that ? Oh ..... I did but people thought I was a nut case because they all knew it would lead to nothing but Zimbabwe type inflation. The banks hate the idea because it by-passes them and they can’t make money out of it.

Many economists have been calling for this MMT for decades, known as Universal Basic Income (UBI) , ..... now, at last, the message seems to getting through!

Have you not noticed that whilst the NHS was short of equipment, the Military had in store several 4000 bed temporary hospitals for the anticipated military casualties predicted in the next war? We have two aircraft carrier’s ..... we don’t need for defence, without aircraft because we can’t afford them, all to defend the UK (From what is not defined!) and are also updating our nuclear capability.

The only attack we have had to repulse since 1945 was the Falklands and even then, what happened to all our NATO allies? The French were selling our enemy missiles and aircraft which killed hundreds of UK Troops and the US decided it didn’t want to get involved! We pay 2%+ of GDP to belong to this club whose Moto is ‘ .......an attack on one is an attack on all’!

Excuse me if my comments seem a bit cynical but as far as I can see the picture ...... most of the population of various countries, have been taken for a ride! A bit late now to do anything about it ..... but they were warned and it was all predictable!

[Paphitis]

[Paphitis]

Yeh amazing that these days one must consult FOX News for real news that is censored by others and big tech.

[Kikapu]

This is a great economic advantage. Pensioners not only need to be given the pension they have ‘paid-for’ over their working lives but maintenance costs for the old are high as medical problems are more prevalent when bits start wearing out. So, getting rid of the old and the sick without the need for gas chambers and furnaces, certainly has economic advantages? If a few thousand younger people die because they have medical conditions (which also needs treatment) are obese and are heavy smokers and/or drinkers .............. then that is obviously a bonus to the economy.x

Does that mean then that there won’t an attempt to develop a vaccine for Covid-19 as old age is not a one time event, therefore, killing the old and the unhealthy must continue in perpetuity, no?

[Paphitis]

[Paphitis]

This is a great economic advantage. Pensioners not only need to be given the pension they have ‘paid-for’ over their working lives but maintenance costs for the old are high as medical problems are more prevalent when bits start wearing out. So, getting rid of the old and the sick without the need for gas chambers and furnaces, certainly has economic advantages? If a few thousand younger people die because they have medical conditions (which also needs treatment) are obese and are heavy smokers and/or drinkers .............. then that is obviously a bonus to the economy.x

Does that mean then that there won’t an attempt to develop a vaccine for Covid-19 as old age is not a one time event, therefore, killing the old and the unhealthy must continue in perpetuity, no?

We have to be prepared for the possibility now that a vaccine may never be found. If that is the case, we have to return to normality. Businesses to reopen and people to return to work and travel to recommence.

Lock downs can not remain in perpetuity.

Howver, if people want to remain isolated, then let them.

[Kikapu]

The British government states that the UK buses are not conducive for Social Distancing. That is true with the double decker buses. Had Boris Johnson as mayor of London did not get rid of the “bendy” buses (articulated buses), they would be more beneficial now for Social Distancing. Perhaps now, they will be brought back as they are far more versatile than the double deckers, always were and always will.

[Paphitis]

[erolz66]

As I see things.

The scale of this 'event', which is ongoing, in many countries is already the biggest such event seen since 1917/8 Flu outbreak in terms of total deaths from all causes. In UK this is 100% certain for last 20-25 years where there is direct comparable data and for me 95% + certain for last hundred years, with the 5% being the possible exception of 1968 flu pandemic where there are not directly comparable numbers but all indications are the current event is already bigger.

I not convinced that of the known definite excess deaths by all causes seen in the UK, a significant % of them in weeks 14-17 are the result of 'lock down' and not the virus, because Sweden that has not locked down is showing the same excess death figures, also highest since 1917/8, to almost exact same degree as UK.

I am therefore not impressed by experts that make claims like 'covid-19 is less dangerous than seasonal flu' or ones that claim 'the number of deaths is no different from flu peaks that occur every so many years', who then go on to use limited or anecdotal 'samples' to extrapolate and guess figures that are by definition unknowable with any certainty, like R, to 'prove' that what we already know from hard indisputable data is not actually the case. Nor am I impressed by those who constantly push these experts without any comment on how these claims just do not fit the simple hard known mortality data we have whilst bemoaning that every one other than them is sheep unable to think critically and why will people not just accept their experts. I am even less impressed if these people first started out using the 'total death all causes' figures, when they showed no excess deaths, to prove this event was no different from regular flu spikes that occur every so many years, and then either ignored them entirely or claimed 'discrepancy' as soon as they started showing the wrong thing.

I do not think the 'solution' to MSM sensationalism and bias is to just go around finding any 'non main stream' source that fits what you want to believe and then believing that because it is not 'main stream'. The solution is actually applying critical thinking and judgement, which takes real time and effort, to all sources of information regardless of if they are 'main stream' or not. I have always rejected the simple notion that bad things happen and are allowed to happen because the mass of people (but never the individual making such arguments) are stupid or sheep or bedwetters. The media do have significant influence but this is a complex system and simplistic notions will almost always be wrong and there is little better work on this phenomenon that 'manufacturing consent' by Noam Chomsy - which takes effort and time to understand, as opposed to shouting 'you are all sheep' which does not.

I do not know if 'lock down' measures will turn out to be net positive or negative but I am pretty dam sure that no one else does either or can know with certainty. Those that claim to know for sure and claim there is hard 'scientific' evidence and data that proves their certainty are almost all imo driven by 'politics' of some form or another and not seeking to be 'guided by data and not emotion' what ever they might claim.

Lock down as far as it does effectively slow down the rate of infection has benefits that are not just about 'lock down until their is a vaccine'. The time bought has benefits beyond just waiting for a vaccine not least of which is ever increasing effective treatment and ways of managing things like protection for those giving such treatment and measure to manage living in an environment where an infectious novel virus exits without there being a vaccine. If it is inevitable that I will get the virus I would chose to get it not in the first 3 months of its existence being know but in the 6 months or a year or longer after it was first recognised regardless of any vaccine.

In the part of Cyprus where I am we are now, without a new positive case for 19 days, with testing continuing at the rate of around 1500 - 2000 test per day. I find in unlikely in the extreme that this result could have been achieved without the lock down measure that were in place and are now being steadily removed here. Nor do I think it likely that having achieved this result so far, this has not saved any lives in the short medium or long terms.

All vaccines do is stimulate the bodies own immune response to a given virus without you having to first get the virus. Given that we do not yet know and to large degree can not yet know what the degree of protection the body's immune system can or will give to this virus and for how long I find most talk about vaccines near useless, who ever they come from.

I think that the time to worry about 'authoritarian' tendencies from governments and police was actually BEFORE we found ourselves in the midst of a global pandemic whereby atypical measures are difficult judgements are required. Shouting about it in the middle of such a pandemic is to me like shouting about cuts to the fire service that you have ignored for the last 20 years, whilst your house is burning down. Like wise with issue about 'big pharma'.

I think people that shout about billionaires like bill gates , their power and influence and how they use it, now whilst their house is now burning down, and who make no mention of billionaires like the Koch brothers, who have and continue to use their billions in massively less transparent and more insidious and covert ways than Bill Gates and to much greater degree than him and for a much longer period of time, are deluded and unable or unwilling to see the wood for the trees. Like wise with the issue of 'big pharma' out side of the wider context of 'big business' generally.

How we react to this virus event and the degree to which we get it wrong will cost lives but even if nothing at was done in response to it, it would not on it's own lead to extinction of the species. How we react to a global system predicated on never ending growth of just about everything, if we get it wrong, will lead to the extinction of the species. I personally believe moves to universal basic income, globally, is out best chance of finding a route to deal with the existing global model of 'constant growth' that will kill us all if we can not get an handle on it and have done so for a very long time now.

To a large large degree and in so many ways on and on so many levels, Paphitis continues to appear to me to be the biggest plonker I have encountered in my life.