Cyprus-Forum.com

[cyprusgrump]

Another very interesting article about Sweden...

In Sweden, Will Voluntary Self‐​Isolation Work Better Than State‐​Enforced Lockdowns in the Long Run?

A small extract...

For example, the number of deaths as a share of total cases is a useless statistic, since countries have completely different testing regimes. It is at best an indication of a country’s testing capacity and how many people with more mild cases are being tested—an area where Sweden has not impressed.

Those who want to show how great Sweden is doing have produced charts comparing us to countries like Britain, Belgium, France, Spain, and Italy. Those who want to prove the opposite replace those countries with Norway, Denmark, and Finland, all of which have fewer deaths.

If you want Sweden to look bad, compare it to the U.S. as a whole—120 deaths per million in Sweden vs. 94 in the U.S. according to Our World in Data’s April 16 numbers. If you want Sweden to look good, compare it to New York state, which is at a more similar stage to us in the virus’s spread—120 vs. 580.

The truth is that Sweden is somewhere in the European middle when it comes to deaths per capita, which in itself is interesting. We are outliers in terms of policy, but not in terms of outcomes.

[cyprusgrump]

I've never made that claim...

Yes you have. And unlike you when I make an accusation I back it up with evidence.

cyprus47300-1290.html#p896537

Show me where I claim that in the link you've provided please...?

[cyprusgrump]

The point of trying to flatten the curve is to reduce deaths that would occur if you did not flatten the curve.

No it isn't, it has never been...

The point of Lockdown is to prevent health services being overwhelmed by the disease and therefore more people dying because they could not access hospitals for any reason as happened in Italy.

Now that hospitals have spare capacity (and some 'emergency hospitals' haven't even been opened) the justification for Lockdown doesn't exist.

Unless of course you'd prefer to be Locked down until a vaccine or effective treatment is developed...?

[erolz66]

Another very interesting article about Sweden...

In Sweden, Will Voluntary Self‐​Isolation Work Better Than State‐​Enforced Lockdowns in the Long Run?

A small extract...

The truth is that Sweden is somewhere in the European middle when it comes to deaths per capita, which in itself is interesting. We are outliers in terms of policy, but not in terms of outcomes.

I have never said anything different. All I have ever done is counter the claims that Sweden shows lock down does not work, because in outcomes it is NOT that different. Which is the same 'evidence' that challenges the claim that of UK excess deaths, large numbers are caused by lockdown. If this were true you would see a difference in Sweden outcome on the hard fact numbers and this is not seen to date.

Show me where I claim that in the link you've provided please...?

You stated that you have never claimed to "'seek the truth' and be 'evidence led'" yet only a handful of posts earlier you quote an expert extract that said

but it is becoming increasingly apparent that numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19

QED

The point of trying to flatten the curve is to reduce deaths that would occur if you did not flatten the curve.

No it isn't, it has never been...

The point of Lockdown is to prevent health services being overwhelmed by the disease and therefore more people dying because they could not access hospitals for any reason as happened in Italy.

Now that hospitals have spare capacity (and some 'emergency hospitals' haven't even been opened) the justification for Lockdown doesn't exist.

Unless of course you'd prefer to be Locked down until a vaccine or effective treatment is developed...?

The sought benefits of 'lock down' of 'flattening the curve' are to 'buy time'. One benefit is to not overload health care systems all in one go but also to gain time to put measures in place that can mitigate morbidity and mortality resulting from the virus. One such measure is putting 'surge capacity' in place. It is not the only one. Buying time to get supplies and stocks of PPE in place and means to distribute them properly is another. Another is buying time to get proper testing in place. Another is buying time to recruit and put in place 'tracker teams' so that if there are new outbreaks following relaxing lock down these can be quickly identified and the consequences of them quickly mitigated and controlled. The sensible approach to removing lock down is to match it in timing and degree to degree of rates of new infection. The zealot approach to removing, the approach wanted by those who decided without any ref to any evidence or data what so ever that it was wrong and stupid from as soon as it was started, it is just to say 'it was pointless when first done, is pointless now and should just be cliff edge removed'.

[cyprusgrump]

Show me where I claim that in the link you've provided please...?

You stated that you have never claimed to "'seek the truth' and be 'evidence led'" yet only a handful of posts earlier you quote an expert extract that said

but it is becoming increasingly apparent that numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19

So I didn't say it then...? Thank you, please don't make stuff up as you go along...

[erolz66]

So I didn't say it then...? Thank you, please don't make stuff up as you go along...

You make accusations against me and when challenged and even offered a 'reward' to show ONE example of the accusation you decline to do so. I provide evidence and you dispute it. I coul;d show more but how about your state what your claimed position is then if it is not in line with the very expert you quoted who said

numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19

Is this NOT your claimed position then ? Are you going to finally just admit you do not believe we should be led by numbers and not emotion ? That we should just chose a side and then spew out anything that supports or appears to support that side and dismiss anything that does not ? That is certainly what you have been doing imo to date but it is NOT what you have CLAIMED you are doing to date.

[Kikapu]

Just a quick report on my brother who was infected by the Covid-19 virus and taken to the hospital after he fell really ill and was placed on the ventilator for 16 days as a last means to save his life, to which large majority do die, he has finally returned to his home last night. Additional 3 weeks stay at the hospital after being removed from the ventilator for him to recover and given constant tests. He has lost 10 kg in muscle mass and is very weak on walking. He has no memory going to the hospital at all. He is not the same person physically, emotionally or psychologically at the moment and he knows he has a long road ahead of him to recover further, not knowing whether he will be the same man as he was before. I just spoke with him few minutes ago to give him some brotherly encouragement, as he can’t believe what has happened to the world during his “absence” from it with the Covid-19.

[Paphitis]

Just a quick report on my brother who was infected by the Covid-19 virus and taken to the hospital after he fell really ill and was placed on the ventilator for 16 days as a last means to save his life, to which large majority do die, he has finally returned to his home last night. Additional 3 weeks stay at the hospital after being removed from the ventilator for him to recover and given constant tests. He has lost 10 kg in muscle mass and is very weak on walking. He has no memory going to the hospital at all. He is not the same person physically, emotionally or psychologically at the moment and he knows he has a long road ahead of him to recover further, not knowing whether he will be the same man as he was before. I just spoke with him few minutes ago to give him some brotherly encouragement, as he can’t believe what has happened to the world during his “absence” from it with the Covid-19.

Won't be long now Kikapu. Now that he will start to eat normally, and with time, he will recover. Just need some patience because it might take 3 months or so and he will probably need that time anyway to recover mentally.

He might find it difficult to walk now because he hasn't used his muscles in a while and they deteriorated.

[cyprusgrump]

So I didn't say it then...? Thank you, please don't make stuff up as you go along...

You make accusations against me and when challenged and even offered a 'reward' to show ONE example of the accusation you decline to do so. I provide evidence and you dispute it. I coul;d show more but how about your state what your claimed position is then if it is not in line with the very expert you quoted who said

numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19

Is this NOT your claimed position then ? Are you going to finally just admit you do not believe we should be led by numbers and not emotion ? That we should just chose a side and then spew out anything that supports or appears to support that side and dismiss anything that does not ? That is certainly what you have been doing imo to date but it is NOT what you have CLAIMED you are doing to date.

More Straw Man shite... Quelle surprise...

You can't prove I said that so you just make shite up and hope people won't notice.

This quote, that was a tiny part of the post I linked to doesn't even match what you accuse me of... Spot the difference...

numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19

Is this NOT your claimed position then ? Are you going to finally just admit you do not believe we should be led by numbers and not emotion ?

Fuck me...

[repulsewarrior]

Is this NOT your claimed position then ? Are you going to finally just admit you do not believe we should be led by numbers and not emotion ? That we should just chose a side and then spew out anything that supports or appears to support that side and dismiss anything that does not ? That is certainly what you have been doing imo to date but it is NOT what you have CLAIMED you are doing to date.

...what are we talking about, Covid, or the Cyprus Problem?