Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy

These lurid figures are wrong because they only take those who show up at hospitals with severe symptoms as the total number of cases, when in fact most cases are either asympotimatic or produce very mild symptoms. Two serious scientific studies conducted so far using large samples from the total population, in Santa Clara County, California, and Heinsberg, Germany, show the true case fatality rate to be between 0.3% and 0.4% which confirms earlier findings from Iceland, which were intitially treated with suspicion because of Iceland's isolated nature.

The figures we have from websites like this…

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

…is the best we’ve got!

I understand that the Health Ministries from every country are reporting Covid stats daily to the WHO, and that’s where the numbers are coming from.

I’m also aware that some countries are over/under-reporting but it’s a fact of life and not much we can do about it.

You mention some individuals who disagree with the stats but they don’t offer a GLOBAL stat-acquisition alternative that can compete with this and be relied upon.

[erolz66]

The problem is ErLolz, you ignore any KNOWN FACTS that don't suit your opinion - then go off on pompous Straw Man arguments that push KNOWN FACTS that suit your opinion to the fore.

Tediously boring, but you seem to have endless time on your hands to do it so knock yourself out... Just don't expect me to read it.

Show ONE example where I have done that vs simply highlighting distinction between know fact and guess and I will not post in this forum for a month. Just ONE.

[cyprusgrump]

The problem is ErLolz, you ignore any KNOWN FACTS that don't suit your opinion - then go off on pompous Straw Man arguments that push KNOWN FACTS that suit your opinion to the fore.

Tediously boring, but you seem to have endless time on your hands to do it so knock yourself out... Just don't expect me to read it.

Show ONE example where I have done that vs simply highlighting distinction between know fact and guess and I will not post in this forum for a month. Just ONE.

Just about every post you make...

But your recent ranting reply to Tim for example... Nobody but nobody has claimed that the ONS figures are false...

We sceptics are just questioning the response to the figures - not the source or accuracy of the ONS figures.

I for one have never questioned the figures - I have pointed out that this deadly, infectious disease has only managed to infect a tiny fraction of the World's population (still under 4m) and killed only 270,000... And I question if the 'cure' is worse than the disease...

Indeed, many people are now dying because they cannot access medical treatment...

Off you go, enjoy your month off...

[repulsewarrior]

WHISTLEBLOWER DETAILS HOW TRUMP’S BUREAUCRATS REFUSED TO SECURE N95 MASKS AS PANDEMIC LOOMED

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/07/cor ... s-n95-ppe/

...months of delay.

[erolz66]

Just about every post you make...

So you can not find even ONE example can you ? Even when the reward is me off the forum for one whole month if you do. Not a single specific example. Does that not tell you something ?

But your recent ranting reply to Tim for example... Nobody but nobody has claimed that the ONS figures are false...

We sceptics are just questioning the response to the figures - not the source or accuracy of the ONS figures.

No you are refusing to accept why and how they are DIFFERENT from all the guess numbers. They are different BECAUSE they are not guesses. You post guess numbers and then imply or state these have equal weight to the ONS ones. THEY DO NOT. All guesses should be first measured against these FACT numbers. If the objective is to let the numbers and not emotion drive decision. The reality is you did NOT ignore this fundamental distionction in these numbers BEFORE they showed massive excess deaths. Before they showed that you made and quoted experts as to why these numbers were hard, different , the simplest way to know how large the event is. Since they started showing that , you just moved to guess numbers , all but ignoring the hard FACT numbers , let along judging guess numbers against the hard fact ones.

I for one have never questioned the figures -

Straw man.

I have pointed out that this deadly, infectious disease has only managed to infect a tiny fraction of the World's population (still under 4m) and killed only 270,000...

This is not argument because it has only killed 270,000 by TODAY. Tomorrow it will be more. A week after more. 6 Months after more. It is 'non argument'

And I question if the 'cure' is worse than the disease...

Indeed do this. It should be done. But do it within the context of the know hard FACT numbers, not ignoring them or pretending they are no different from guess numbers.

Indeed, many people are now dying because they cannot access medical treatment...

They are and there are also some are NOT dying from RTA's and work place accidents and other things. Why do you only look to one side of this and not the other ? Why do you just point this out but not make any attempt to seriously discuss how many of 10,000 excess deaths shown in the FACT numbers for last 2 consecutive weeks and the 8k in week before that and 6k in week before that , are down to 'lock down' and how many down to 'covid' ? If you have argument and evidence that more than half of excess deaths are from lock down and not covid - THEN MAKE THE ARGUMENT.

[cyprusgrump]

Just about every post you make...

So you can not find even ONE example can you ? Even when the reward is me off the forum for one whole month if you do. Not a single specific example. Does that not tell you something ?

But your recent ranting reply to Tim for example... Nobody but nobody has claimed that the ONS figures are false...

We sceptics are just questioning the response to the figures - not the source or accuracy of the ONS figures.

No you are refusing to accept why and how they are DIFFERENT from all the guess numbers. They are different BECAUSE they are not guesses. You post guess numbers and then imply or state these have equal weight to the ONS ones. THEY DO NOT. All guesses should be first measured against these FACT numbers. If the objective is to let the numbers and not emotion drive decision. The reality is you did NOT ignore this fundamental distionction in these numbers BEFORE they showed massive excess deaths. Before they showed that you made and quoted experts as to why these numbers were hard, different , the simplest way to know how large the event is. Since they started showing that , you just moved to guess numbers , all but ignoring the hard FACT numbers , let along judging guess numbers against the hard fact ones.

I for one have never questioned the figures -

Straw man.

I have pointed out that this deadly, infectious disease has only managed to infect a tiny fraction of the World's population (still under 4m) and killed only 270,000...

This is not argument because it has only killed 270,000 by TODAY. Tomorrow it will be more. A week after more. 6 Months after more. It is 'non argument'

And I question if the 'cure' is worse than the disease...

Indeed do this. It should be done. But do it within the context of the know hard FACT numbers, not ignoring them or pretending they are no different from guess numbers.

Indeed, many people are now dying because they cannot access medical treatment...

They are and there are also some are NOT dying from RTA's and work place accidents and other things. Why do you only look to one side of this and not the other ? Why do you just point this out but not make any attempt to seriously discuss how many of 10,000 excess deaths shown in the FACT numbers for last 2 consecutive weeks and the 8k in week before that and 6k in week before that , are down to 'lock down' and how many down to 'covid' ? If you have argument and evidence that more than half of excess deaths are from lock down and not covid - THEN MAKE THE ARGUMENT.

Denial, not just a river in Egypt...

[erolz66]

Just about every post you make...

So you can not find even ONE example can you ? Even when the reward is me off the forum for one whole month if you do. Not a single specific example. Does that not tell you something ?

But your recent ranting reply to Tim for example... Nobody but nobody has claimed that the ONS figures are false...

We sceptics are just questioning the response to the figures - not the source or accuracy of the ONS figures.

No you are refusing to accept why and how they are DIFFERENT from all the guess numbers. They are different BECAUSE they are not guesses. You post guess numbers and then imply or state these have equal weight to the ONS ones. THEY DO NOT. All guesses should be first measured against these FACT numbers. If the objective is to let the numbers and not emotion drive decision. The reality is you did NOT ignore this fundamental distionction in these numbers BEFORE they showed massive excess deaths. Before they showed that you made and quoted experts as to why these numbers were hard, different , the simplest way to know how large the event is. Since they started showing that , you just moved to guess numbers , all but ignoring the hard FACT numbers , let along judging guess numbers against the hard fact ones.

I for one have never questioned the figures -

Straw man.

I have pointed out that this deadly, infectious disease has only managed to infect a tiny fraction of the World's population (still under 4m) and killed only 270,000...

This is not argument because it has only killed 270,000 by TODAY. Tomorrow it will be more. A week after more. 6 Months after more. It is 'non argument'

And I question if the 'cure' is worse than the disease...

Indeed do this. It should be done. But do it within the context of the know hard FACT numbers, not ignoring them or pretending they are no different from guess numbers.

Indeed, many people are now dying because they cannot access medical treatment...

They are and there are also some are NOT dying from RTA's and work place accidents and other things. Why do you only look to one side of this and not the other ? Why do you just point this out but not make any attempt to seriously discuss how many of 10,000 excess deaths shown in the FACT numbers for last 2 consecutive weeks and the 8k in week before that and 6k in week before that , are down to 'lock down' and how many down to 'covid' ? If you have argument and evidence that more than half of excess deaths are from lock down and not covid - THEN MAKE THE ARGUMENT.

Denial, not just a river in Egypt...

So yet more jokes, personal digs, straw men blah blah and not a SINGLE EXAMPLE to back up your accusation.

The problem is ErLolz, you ignore any KNOWN FACTS that don't suit your opinion

Just show ONE example. Just saying 'all your posts' in not an example. If you can I will leave the forum for one whole month. Just one. Shut me up.

QED

Or in plainer language - BUSTED

[Tim Drayton]

The figures we have from websites like this…

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

…is the best we’ve got!

I would suggest such guesstimates were the best we had until serious scientific studies, peer reviewed and published in academic journals, made by virologists using samples large enough to be significant come along, and a couple already have. They show it's less deadly than the flu - and that's despite there being no vaccine for it as opposed to the flu.

[Tim Drayton]

...

Indeed, many people are now dying because they cannot access medical treatment...

...

Well said, and many believe this is a contributory factor towards the massive increase in deaths in England and Wales over the past two weeks, especially as the surplus above the five-year average is far greater than the number of reported Covid deaths.

[erolz66]

The figures we have from websites like this…

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

…is the best we’ve got!

I would suggest such guesstimates were the best we had until serious scientific studies, peer reviewed and published in academic journals, made by virologists using samples large enough to be significant come along, and a couple already have. They show it's less deadly than the flu - and that's despite there being no vaccine for it as opposed to the flu.

And I would suggest that no numbers specific to covid-19 itself are the same as 'total deaths all causes' for a given time period. These numbers are not 'guesses' they are 'facts'. Not in absolute terms of course but in real material relative terms. We should acknowledge that and judge and measure ALL guesses against these facts as the continue to become available.

For example guessed numbers, selective from specific experts but not others, may show degrees of 'its not as deadly as flu'. Hard fact numbers of total deaths from all causes show that this current ongoing event has already led to more total deaths from all causes in UK than any previous flu related event in previous 20-25 years that we have direct comparable numbers for, and strongly indicate this event is bigger in these terms than any previous event for the last 100 years. That is what the FACT numbers show. Or do you dispute this ?