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Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how long?

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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri May 08, 2020 11:48 am

cyprusgrump wrote:Here is another interesting article I've read today. It compares infection and death rates of American states that have Lockdowns to those that do not.

And the concluding paragraph...

No single set of numbers can be perfect, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19. And the numbers just discussed, human and economic, do not make the case for lockdowns.


Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

And ... no, no, no ... this does not mean I am saying Covid-19 is a hoax or is not dangerous (to the aged and those with serious health conditions) or that official figures have not shown weekly deaths at double the five-year average for the past two weeks or whatever other straw man arguments you care to invent. Just that viruses have been plaguing humanity for milenia, the human immune system is equipped to deal with them and they have to do the rounds until the community has acquired sufficient immunity to disable them and, sadly, they take a toll as they do so. We accept deaths in road accidents as being a necessary price to pay for the convenience of having vehicular traffic. If everyone must shelter at home and we wreck the global economy to prevent a single elderly person from dying, then, by the same logic, people should be prohibited from taking vehicles on the road to prevent a single person from ever dying in a road accident.

PS - The original rationale for the lockdown was, while accepting that the virus would ultimately have to go round most of the population, to "flatten the curve" and stop health services from being overwhelmed with cases. Given that the following report on the NHS Nightingale Hospitals reveals:

A series of emergency field hospitals established in the UK to combat the coronavirus pandemic have remained largely empty and are now being scaled back, despite more than 4,000 new deaths from the virus in the past week alone.

...

The London Nightingale, in east London’s ExCel exhibition centre, treated just 51 coronavirus patients during its first three weeks, despite having a 4,000-bed capacity. According to unconfirmed reports by the BBC, thirteen of these patients died from coronavirus. Only 19 patients remained at the hospital on Friday, according to a report in Saturday’s Independent.

Nightingale hospitals in Birmingham, Manchester and Harrogate have seen similar patient numbers, while Sunderland’s hospital, a 460-bed facility, “may never open”, the newspaper reported.

In Saturday’s exclusive story, the Independent reported that London’s Nightingale is “effectively being wound down” with staff told to expect a decision on its future “within days”.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... h-m04.html


this strategy has obviously been a resounding success and it is beyond my comprehension why it is still needed, if this really was the rationale.
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby erolz66 » Fri May 08, 2020 1:55 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:And ... no, no, no ... this does not mean I am saying Covid-19 is a hoax or is not dangerous (to the aged and those with serious health conditions) or that official figures have not shown weekly deaths at double the five-year average for the past two weeks or whatever other straw man arguments you care to invent.


The following is YOUR expert Tim, from 30th March, back when total deaths from all causes in ONS stats showed no indication of exceptional excess deaths.

The simplest way to judge whether we have an exceptionally lethal disease is to look at the death rates. Are more people dying than we would expect to die anyway in a given week or month?


Is this a 'straw man' argument ? It is the same argument I have always made and am STILL making , that you now call 'straw man'. The SIMPLEST way to judge is 'Are more people dying than we would expect to die anyway in a given week'. Is this still true or not Tim ? Or was it only true when the numbers gave you the right answer and now they do not it is a 'straw man' argument ?

What about CG's expert from 11th April post

The ONS figures only come out after all the others but they have the advantage of not having been monkeyed about with.


When they talk about ONS figures they are talking about 'total deaths from all causes' in given week. Only that. The ONS was not giving any other figures back then other than total deaths from all causes. So 'your' expert was making the point that these numbers - 'total deaths all causes' are HARD numbers. Not 'monkeyed around with numbers'. Numbers of FACT. IS that now 'straw man' argument ?

No single set of numbers can be perfect,


The ONS 'total deaths from all causes' figures ARE as close to perfect as any number even can be. Why are you now not just accepting this simple reality. They are materialy different from any and all numbers relating specifically to Covid-19. It is not just me saying this, your OWN experts made this very point as shown above. Why now are you calling such arguments 'straw man' ?

THEY ARE THE HARDEST NUMBERS WE HAVE. They are numbers of cold hard FACT and not opinion, or guess. Just cold hard sober FACT.

Any other numbers, which are ALL 'best guesses' to varying degrees right now should be measured against the hard 'perfect', 'not monkeyed around', fact figures of 'total deaths all causes' BECAUSE they are hard not monkeyed around figures. If you genuinely believe

that numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19.


then why are you no longer NOT starting with these numbers - the ones that ARE 'perfect', first and measuring all others that are not and can not be perfect against these ? Why are you NOW calling arguments making this point 'straw man' ? Start with FACTS and then work out from there measuring all 'guesses' against the FACTS.

Tim Drayton wrote:Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.


This is OPINION. It is not 'hard fact' like the ONS total deaths all causes numbers ARE fact. It is based on numbers that inherently uncertain and unknown and unknowable to very large degrees. The opinion MIGHT be right but it is not FACT. Why are you presenting it as FACT ? Even if (and this is STILL a big IF) there will never be an effective vaccine this OPINION of your is not certain. Even if ultimately everyone is going to get infected there is STILL a case to be made that there is potential value in slowing down rate of initial spread in that it buys time for better TREATMENT to be established. Why do you ignore this ? I am not saying this means Sweden's approach is wrong. I am asking why you are not making the argument 'everyone will get infected eventually , better to get it over and one with quickly and move on' within the context of the FACT numbers we DO have and within the context 'of making best judgement' re balance. Why are you presenting this OPINION as just done and dusted fact based on 'imperfect sets of numbers'?
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby Get Real! » Fri May 08, 2020 2:15 pm

Tim Drayton wrote:Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby cyprusgrump » Fri May 08, 2020 2:42 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy



The UK is 14%, France 14%, Italy 13% and Spain 10%...
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby Get Real! » Fri May 08, 2020 2:58 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy

The UK is 14%, France 14%, Italy 13% and Spain 10%...

Yeah, the top 10 Corona policy failures and Sweden is among them.
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby cyprusgrump » Fri May 08, 2020 3:06 pm

Get Real! wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy

The UK is 14%, France 14%, Italy 13% and Spain 10%...

Yeah, the top 10 Corona policy failures and Sweden is among them.



But the others have Lockdowns (isn't France one of the toughest?), fucked economies and civil liberty suspended... I think that is the point some of us are trying to make... :roll:

Essentially, Sweden isn't an outlier in terms of death rates, will be in a better state economically and may well benefit from Herd Immunity.

The statistical analysis I posted on US States is fascinating if you read it....
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby Tim Drayton » Fri May 08, 2020 3:16 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy


These lurid figures are wrong because they only take those who show up at hospitals with severe symptoms as the total number of cases, when in fact most cases are either asympotimatic or produce very mild symptoms. Two serious scientific studies conducted so far using large samples from the total population, in Santa Clara County, California, and Heinsberg, Germany, show the true case fatality rate to be between 0.3% and 0.4% which confirms earlier findings from Iceland, which were intitially treated with suspicion because of Iceland's isolated nature.
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby Get Real! » Fri May 08, 2020 3:18 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
Tim Drayton wrote:Thanks. An excellent study. Just as the case of Sweden demonstrates, lockdown or no lockdown, the disease will have roughly the same effect and will not end until herd immunity is achieved. The only difference is whether you destroy the economy or not.

Sweden's fatality rate is an appalling 12.34% so I wouldn’t use them as an example to anything positive.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel ... -top-1000/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... s-strategy

The UK is 14%, France 14%, Italy 13% and Spain 10%...

Yeah, the top 10 Corona policy failures and Sweden is among them.

But the others have Lockdowns (isn't France one of the toughest?), fucked economies and civil liberty suspended... I think that is the point some of us are trying to make... :roll:

Essentially, Sweden isn't an outlier in terms of death rates, will be in a better state economically and may well benefit from Herd Immunity.

The statistical analysis I posted on US States is fascinating if you read it....

In these countries, lock-downs were either implemented too slow and/or they were not abided-by their population.

Civil liberty doesn’t concern me much because I understand the extraordinary circumstances under which the liberties have been suspended, and it’s a small price to pay to limit the number of infected/dead.

The economy is definitely a concern... and it reminds me of the Greece fire from two years ago; some people stood in the sea neck deep in water to save themselves. Had they gone further into the sea they’d drown and had they headed for the shore they’d burn to death!

We are stuck in limbo due to extraordinary circumstances, and not because some brutal dictator is imposing his will upon us.
Last edited by Get Real! on Fri May 08, 2020 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby erolz66 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:20 pm

cyprusgrump wrote:But the others have Lockdowns (isn't France one of the toughest?), fucked economies and civil liberty suspended... I think that is the point some of us are trying to make... :roll:


So make it within the context of what is KNOWN FACT. That the scale of this event is largest in last 100 years and not with arguments - this event is similar to regular recent flu spikes. Make it accepting that we do not know if or when a vaccine may or may not be available and what effectiveness and not with bogus pseudo science claims 'we know there will never be a vaccine'. Lets judge everything unknown against the known. Then we might get some useful discussion and all learn and develop our positions and stop just using 'my expert is better than your expert' waste of time postings and accusations of you are straw man, no you are straw man' over and over ?
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Re: Still no confirmed Corona cases in Cyprus, but for how l

Postby cyprusgrump » Fri May 08, 2020 3:26 pm

erolz66 wrote:
cyprusgrump wrote:But the others have Lockdowns (isn't France one of the toughest?), fucked economies and civil liberty suspended... I think that is the point some of us are trying to make... :roll:


So make it within the context of what is KNOWN FACT. That the scale of this event is largest in last 100 years and not with arguments - this event is similar to regular recent flu spikes. Make it accepting that we do not know if or when a vaccine may or may not be available and what effectiveness and not with bogus pseudo science claims 'we know there will never be a vaccine'. Lets judge everything unknown against the known. Then we might get some useful discussion and all learn and develop our positions and stop just using 'my expert is better than your expert' waste of time postings and accusations of you are straw man, no you are straw man' over and over ?



The problem is ErLolz, you ignore any KNOWN FACTS that don't suit your opinion - then go off on pompous Straw Man arguments that push KNOWN FACTS that suit your opinion to the fore. :roll:

Tediously boring, but you seem to have endless time on your hands to do it so knock yourself out... Just don't expect me to read it. :wink:
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