Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Ohh dear dear. So much self glorification by Turkey of being the "humanitarian nation" for nothing!

Exclusive: All 400,000 PPE gowns from Turkey found to be 'useless'

It was nicknamed "Air Jenrick" – a Royal Air Force plane left waiting at a Turkish airport for a vital shipment of medical gowns.

The UK's severe shortage of personal protective equipment (PPE) had descended into farce, with officials scrambling to secure the equipment needed to keep front line NHS workers safe.
Now The Telegraph can reveal that the mission ended in disaster.

Every one of the 400,000 gowns brought back from Turkey last month has been impounded in a warehouse outside Heathrow Airport after inspectors found the gear was "useless" and fell short of UK standards, senior sources said.

Most of the gowns were produced by a Turkish firm that switched from making tracksuits and T-shirts after coronavirus began to spread across the world in January.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-go ... 50809.html

These are not the 'aid' PPE shipments, these are the same purchased ones talked about earlier re 'delays'. UK Ministers, in their rush to try and be seen to try to do something about PPE shortages, orderd these goods from a private company In Turkey without seeing any samples, paid for them and then announced publicly that they would arrive the next day, when it turns out neither they or the company had started the export paperwork process. A balls up from beginning to end but the blame for this particular shipment lies with those UK ministers involved.

I am not defending Turkey btw I am just defending truth and accuracy.

Maybe from private company maybe not

https://www.ft.com/content/8d1522cd-d69 ... f220fc1e09

The 'aid' shipments were earlier, the ones covered in Turkish flags and poetry and to the best of my knowledge these did meet UK standards and have been used by front line workers. It was also much less, I think two deliveries of 14 tons each vs 80 odd tons in this later balls up delivery

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11371607/ ... ipment-uk/

And that was my concern, Erol, that if the purchased PPE supplies from Turkey were crap, then how bad the free ones were going to be sent as aid which Turkey took a lot of credit in helping others. Were the aid supplies satisfactory or did the receiving countries didn’t cause a fuzz not to be accused of “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”!

[Maximus]

this is no aid shipment.

it is a commercial transaction where the product is not fit for purpose.

The UK basically got scammed. The Turkish company just made it look like they got what they paid for.

Much like when some Turks were making and selling life jackets filled with sponge to illegal migrants trying to cross by sea in to Europe.

The UK thought they were getting one thing and got something else and the Turkish government tries to use it for PR to say they are providing aid...

Dont buy anything from Turkey if your money or your life depends on it.

[Paphitis]

Sorry but the sooner this lock down ends in Australia, the better. Pubs, restaurants, cafes, clubs will be open in 2 weeks.

If you want to be locked down then good for you.

We want to continue living our lives.

That is all very well, Paphitis, but as long as the Covid-19 is with us, either there will be “social distancing” which means many restaurants, pups, cafes, clubs and so on will be going out of business due to lack of customers, or that there won’t be any “social distancing” which means there will be more cases and deaths which will cause many restaurants, pups, cafes, clubs and so on to go out of business, again due to lack of customers.

I don't know, but when they say they plan to open cafes, pubs and restaurants, they mean back to normal as far as seating is concerned.

Most people don't seem to be socially distancing right now. I use to, but can't be bothered anymore. Chy-na Virus doesn't worry me. I don't practice social distancing unless the other person does but I do wash my hands more and use sanitizer whenever I tough foreign surfaces such as door handles or at the shops. Other than that, most of the people I hang with these days are taking the piss and are not taking things seriously at all and are even laughing it off. Lots of tradies, which I enjoy working with at the moment because they are good lads and grateful this Chy-na Virus hasn't really affected them yet.

We have had 1 case after 14 days of nothing.

And the authorities tried to tell us he was someone who traveled from the UK 6 weeks ago. I thought the incubation period was between 6 to 14 days. Wouldn't surprise me if it is fake news/propaganda.

[Paphitis]

People are fed up with this nonsense!

It's the boy that cried wolf and now, many won't be taking it seriously at all.

Anyone looking at things like 'total weekly deaths from all causes' in data like the ONS stats and seeing the massive spikes vs previous years averages or vs worst flu spikes in last 25 years, knows there is a wolf out there. How big and how bad we do not yet know but we know in places like the UK its bigger than any previous flu spike for 25 years. Accepting the truth as shown by solid hard unarguable numbers is not crying wolf. It is accepting facts.

Of course, there are those like you who will just obey the authorities without question.

I would bet everything I own that over my lifetime I have consistently and systematically challenged authority and authorities to a significantly greater degree than you have. Before covid-19, during it and after it as well. You are a poster boy for unquestioning kow towing and cap doffing to authority and authorities, their institutions and to wealth and power generally.

Here in Australia, people are only doing what they have to, and push the envelope for as much as they can get away with. Chy-na Virus has become a complete joke in these neck of the woods.

Here where I am we are way ahead of you. Ahead in terms of number of days with ZERO new infections and ahead of you in terms of official relaxing of measures and way ahead of you in terms of many people just ignoring what the rules are anyway.

What's better, is that more and more people are question things and looking for alternative sources to find the answers.

By watching and declaring the likes of David Icke as 'experts to be listen to' you mean ? The source is not the problem or a solution if you do not have the will or ability to distinguish a ragging nutter talking bollocks from someone sane with a valid point to make. The problem is not the media. The problem is YOU paphitis. The problem is not a lack of different voices and views. the problem is your inability to sort wheat from chaff amongst them.

A lot believe that this is all about control of the masses and have become very cynical and suspicious. Most people are now not buying anything the media tell them.

Are any of them starting to wonder to what degree could or is 'five eyes' a system that enables totalitarian authoritarian surveillance of anyone who might question authorities ?

I don't challenge authority willy nilly nor desire to do so. Just trying to be objective.

I have a lot more faith in the Government than I do people such as you. Because I know there are good people in our Government who genuinely fight for Australia. But because of our democratic system, they are sometimes forced to act.

Such as when every single newspaper and TV channel demand isolation measures similar to overseas countries. Australia has generally been resistant, and our PM even told the public to be careful what they wished for. he actually said, that if these measures were introduced, it will be a long time before they are revoked. He was warning against any over reaction. He said, people need to go about and maintain as much normality as possible, within reason.

We have not had much death here, nor any massive pandemic that is anywhere near overloading our Health System. And yet we have spent Billions preparing for something that will not occur. So many empty ICU departments now which require a war in order to be used. A system that far exceeds any demand since WW2.

And, I'm sorry to say but your comparison between your little backwater isn't a valid comparison to a country like Australia with its highly urbanized population and cities of more than 5 million people (Sydney and Melbourne) as well as cities like Brisbane, Perth and Adelaide.

Our 5 eyes network (Echelon), in collaboration with the US, Canada, UK and NZ (the other 4 eyes) has nothing at all to do with Authoritarianism. It's a spy and intelligence network of intelligence sharing between these countries. It's covert. It's highly secretive and plays an important role as part of our espionage, surveillance apparatus and also in counter terrorism. It also defends our countries and our vital assets from hacking, sabotage, and interference, and probably has a capability to conduct such activities against other Governments around the world, in particular, Russia, Iran, Turkey, Chy-na, North Korea and some others. It's a critical part of our defence Network and it supplies our military with all the necessary intelligence when they conduct military operations. We have to defend ourselves from foreign espionage, sabotage, hacking and other interference and we rely on the network to assess risks, monitor terrorist activity and spy on other countries and monitor their diplomats and also maintain security for our own diplomats overseas and also monitor their activity. It is no different to any number of countries who have similar networks in place. No Australian citizen has ever been affected by it other than the fact some are still alive today and may not have been without 5 eyes. Australia has thwarted more than a dozen terrorist plots on Australian soil.

No Australian Citizen should be the subject of our Intelligence Apparatus unless they are suspected of terrorism or other foreign inspired nefarious activities, or you have been vetted for a high level security clearance. People like politicians, military officers and personnel could be as part of the vetting process and that is fair enough and expected. Australia has high level security arrangements with countries like US, and France to safeguard military equipment and facilities as well as many other things relating to foreign intelligence.

5 Eyes isn't a measure of any Authoritarianism. We are NOT Authoritarian States. We have complete freedom and democracy, unlike YOU in your Turkish Occupied little backwater and Turkey which are authoritarian.''Our Agencies like ASIO and ASIC are a vital part of our country and have been in existence since Federation in 1901, and played a role in every single war Australia was involved in. They are not going anywhere, and anyone like you who decides to object to their Authority better be careful.

These Agencies have saved the lives of hundreds of Australian Soldiers and people.

[cyprusgrump]

Another blogger I have followed for many years has written an article on the likelihood of a vaccine being developed(low) and the quality of the computer model used to justify Lock-down.

As some of you may know, your humble Devil studied (in a desultory way) Microbiology at university, and has always had a special interest in human pathogens. So, today I would like to talk about why a "permanent" vaccine for the novel coronavirus is pie in the sky; and cannot, as Boris keeps maintaining, be a pre-condition of removing the lockdown—not, at least, on a permanent basis.

The first point to make is that the novel coronavirus (nCV) is a single-stranded RNA virus (more about that in a moment) and we do not have an effective vaccine against any coronavirus.

And...

I’ll illustrate with a few bugs. In issue 116 a UK “red team” at Edinburgh University reports that they tried to use a mode that stores data tables in a more efficient format for faster loading, and discovered – to their surprise – that the resulting predictions varied by around 80,000 deaths after 80 days...

Both are an interesting read in full if you have time...

[erolz66]

And that was my concern, Erol, that if the purchased PPE supplies from Turkey were crap, then how bad the free ones were going to be sent as aid which Turkey took a lot of credit in helping others. Were the aid supplies satisfactory or did the receiving countries didn’t cause a fuzz not to be accused of “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”!

I understand that for you and maximus, the narrative that any thing from Turkey, made in Turkey, made by Turkey is crap and that Turks are crooks is an attractive one. I understand why that is the case for you. However I just do not buy such narratives in general, be they aimed at Turkey, China, Greece or anywhere else. Nor do I buy them in this specific example. The reality is Turkey has been a 'net exporter' of PPE equipment for decades to countries around the world and Europe particularly. PPE equipment that meets the standards required by countries like Germany. There is no evidence at all that I know off that the pure 'aid' shipments made by Turkey were in any substandard or defective. Such narratives frustrate me because I think they stop us from finding proper understanding. The reason why this non aid commercial shipment was such a balls up was because the whole thing was rushed and badly implemented. This to me , as someone with 'skin' in the UK and how it is run (I am British, I am not Turkish, I hold British citizenship, I do not hold Turkish, I speak English not Turkish, have lived large part of my life in UK, none in Turkey, Have friends and family in UK , none in Turkey) is the real 'scandal' here. The UK stock levels of PPE from before this crisis were atrocious and repeated warnings were ignore by UK government ministers. We had pretty much the entire month of February, whilst we looked on in horror at what was going on Italy and then Spain, to try and secure the PPE that we should have know by then we would need and did next to nothing. Instead what we had was, much later and as knee jerk reaction to the virus spreading like wild firs and front line staff dying in all over the place because of lack of PPE, was ministers trying to 'solve' that problem by trying to buy and have deliverer the next day PPE from an unknown commercial entity, by people without experience or connections in PPE supply chains and announcing it as a 'victory'. THAT is why it all went tits up, in terms of 'delay' and in terms of 'not right quality'. Narratives of 'anything from Turkey is crap, Turks are all crooks' just distract and give a get out clause for those who should be identified as the 'problem' in this case.

More generally I get frustrated by the 'Turks are crooks' narratives as well for similar reason. Maximus' 'evidence' for this is that 'Turks' sold fault dinghies and life jackets and such to asylum seekers and immigrants. To me this is just applying the 'commonality' to the 'wrong target' and in doing so it undermines the chances of dealing with the issue. The commonality is 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit'. This commonality applies not to specific ethnic groups. It is applies to 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit' and such people exist in Turkey just as they exist everywhere else as well, UK, Cyprus and Greece included. I would like to see a proper attack against 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit' and that is not helped by identifying the 'commonality' as not being 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit' but as being 'turks' (or Greeks, Or any other ethnic group).

[erolz66]

Another blogger I have followed for many years has written an article on the likelihood of a vaccine being developed(low)

I think anyone who can properly think critically for themselves already knew and knows that the chance of a vaccine and more so of a 'one shot for life' vaccine , give how much we still do not yet know, is 'low'. I certainly have understood this for a considerable time now and get frustrated at governments and media saying otherwise. I don't need an 'expert' to tell me this specifically.

This however is VERY different from quoting an 'expert' that states a vaccine is impossible based on bogus 'science' (because it is in corona family therefore vaccine is impossible) in order to specifically push a given narrative - namely 'because a vaccine is impossible (not true, might be might not be) therefore lock down was an is pointless (also not true)'. This is what you did BEFORE posting your expert that states , to me at least, the 'bleeding obvious' about vaccine chances. I do not have time right now but will read you 'expert' later to see to what degree he takes the 'chances of vaccine are low' fact and then uses it to push a narrative of 'lock down was wrong and it needs to be cliff edge reversed' or see if it is just you doing that.

Whats the number CG ? would 3 million deaths globally be 'enough' for you ?

[Kikapu]

And that was my concern, Erol, that if the purchased PPE supplies from Turkey were crap, then how bad the free ones were going to be sent as aid which Turkey took a lot of credit in helping others. Were the aid supplies satisfactory or did the receiving countries didn’t cause a fuzz not to be accused of “Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”!

I understand that for you and maximus, the narrative that any thing from Turkey, made in Turkey, made by Turkey is crap and that Turks are crooks is an attractive one. I understand why that is the case for you. However I just do not buy such narratives in general, be they aimed at Turkey, China, Greece or anywhere else. Nor do I buy them in this specific example. The reality is Turkey has been a 'net exporter' of PPE equipment for decades to countries around the world and Europe particularly. PPE equipment that meets the standards required by countries like Germany. There is no evidence at all that I know off that the pure 'aid' shipments made by Turkey were in any substandard or defective. Such narratives frustrate me because I think they stop us from finding proper understanding. The reason why this non aid commercial shipment was such a balls up was because the whole thing was rushed and badly implemented. This to me , as someone with 'skin' in the UK and how it is run (I am British, I am not Turkish, I hold British citizenship, I do not hold Turkish, I speak English not Turkish, have lived large part of my life in UK, none in Turkey, Have friends and family in UK , none in Turkey) is the real 'scandal' here. The UK stock levels of PPE from before this crisis were atrocious and repeated warnings were ignore by UK government ministers. We had pretty much the entire month of February, whilst we looked on in horror at what was going on Italy and then Spain, to try and secure the PPE that we should have know by then we would need and did next to nothing. Instead what we had was, much later and as knee jerk reaction to the virus spreading like wild firs and front line staff dying in all over the place because of lack of PPE, was ministers trying to 'solve' that problem by trying to buy and have deliverer the next day PPE from an unknown commercial entity, by people without experience or connections in PPE supply chains and announcing it as a 'victory'. THAT is why it all went tits up, in terms of 'delay' and in terms of 'not right quality'. Narratives of 'anything from Turkey is crap, Turks are all crooks' just distract and give a get out clause for those who should be identified as the 'problem' in this case.

More generally I get frustrated by the 'Turks are crooks' narratives as well for similar reason. Maximus' 'evidence' for this is that 'Turks' sold fault dinghies and life jackets and such to asylum seekers and immigrants. To me this is just applying the 'commonality' to the 'wrong target' and in doing so it undermines the chances of dealing with the issue. The commonality is 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit'. This commonality applies not to specific ethnic groups. It is applies to 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit' and such people exist in Turkey just as they exist everywhere else as well, UK, Cyprus and Greece included. I would like to see a proper attack against 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit' and that is not helped by identifying the 'commonality' as not being 'people willing to exploit others suffering for profit' but as being 'turks' (or Greeks, Or any other ethnic group).

Well, actually the narrative for this purpose was the newspaper article on the faulty medical supplies from Turkey to the UK, which the Turkish government went great lengths to take credit for supplies given as aid to other countries as well as implying in different formats that even the sold medical supplies as being aid to the unsuspecting reader. This is not to implicate the Turkish people as crooks but to suspect the Turkish government as being morally corrupted, in the hopes of getting favourable treatments, to be economically or politically from select countries.

This is not my interpretation, but from Turkish government official stating a month or so ago, that by sending aid to the USA was an “investment” for Turkey in the future by spending a little now for greater gain later. Considering there are some legal issues for Turkey in the USA, economic issues for Turkey in the USA and political issues for Turkey in the USA, it all ties together by sending some medical aid to the USA voluntarily would be a good “investment” for the future. This is typical how Erdogan and his government works as being an opportunist whenever possible. Naturally, Many governments act in this manner, but since the narrative is about Turkey for now, it needs to be mentioned.

Unlike you Erol, I do speak Turkish, albeit not great, I have lived in Turkey for 2 years as a kid, have visited Turkey many times up to 5 years ago and I do have family members who live in Turkey as well as extended family members from Turkey. Our commonality between you and I are, that we are both British, have lived in the UK and have at least one parent who is a Cypriot. I feel sorry for many Turks living in Turkey under Erdogan’s immoral government as well as TCs living in the north who are affected by Turkey’s political and economic policies which the devaluation of the Turkish currency year in year out without fail which has huge impact for those living in the north, especially on those who do not have money coming in the form of strong foreign currency.

[cyprusgrump]

Here is another interesting article I've read today. It compares infection and death rates of American states that have Lockdowns to those that do not.

And the concluding paragraph...

No single set of numbers can be perfect, but it is becoming increasingly apparent that numbers, not emotions, must guide the debate about how best to respond to Covid-19. And the numbers just discussed, human and economic, do not make the case for lockdowns.

[Tim Drayton]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/children-hyper-inflammatory-disease-coronavirus-a4434636.html

Tiny tiny numbers so far but I find this quite worrying. One to watch.

From the article:

"blood tests were not detecting the virus in children."

Never mind. Who cares about evidence any more? If the media says that kids who quite possibly have a totally unrelated serious illness are to be included in the Covid-19 scare, then it must be so. At least it is for those with cofirmation bias.