Cyprus-Forum.com

[Sotos]

erolz, there are stories and then there is history. Stories are things like what MR-from-NG wrote ("a friend told me..."), history is (should be) more about looking at the whole rather than picking and choosing just specific parts. My argument is that Greek Cypriots didn't invent discrimination and segregation, nor they are more racist as MR-from-NG said.

I do not disagree that over a specific era TCs faced racism and discrimination from GCs. This doesn't mean that all GCs were racists or that during this era there were no counter-examples. At the same time however there have been other eras, which as a matter of fact were longer, where the opposite was true. I don't think we need to present a story of unity or division. I think we should just be objective and whatever the past might have been, agree that for the future we need to do the right thing. And the right thing I hope we should all agree is that racism and segregation is wrong.

For me the Cyprus problem is not one of racism. It is one of identity. For me if we genuinely seek a united Cyprus then we have to chose to want a Cyprus where TC are wanted and needed and not just tolerated and chose to believe this because they are an inherent component of what makes Cypriots Cypriot. We need to chose to believe that the loss of TC in Cyprus is a loss of part of what makes us Cypriots, And visa versa.

For me identity is a personal issue and shouldn't matter to the state or to others. The only thing that should matter should be that you are a citizen and should therefore have the exact same rights and responsibilities as every other citizen without any kind of discrimination based on your identity (racial, ethnic, religious, linguistic, gender etc). The only thing Greek and Turkish relevant to the state should be languages, and in that respect both languages should be equal.

Personally I would be happier if we could have a free and independent Cyprus, where Greek and Turkish nationalism were not replaced with Cypriot nationalism, but instead with no nationalism at all. We now live in a globalized world and who we are is a lot more than what village we happened to be born in. Being "Cypriot" is only a tiny part of who I am, and it doesn't mean I have more in common with other Cypriots than with people elsewhere. Cypriot should be just "the one with Cypriot citizenship". Making it just a mix of Greek and Turkish leaves out a lot of other factors, and also leaves out a lot of people who might be Cypriot citizens but might be neither Greek nor Turkish.

[erolz66]

How can you have a state and certainly a stable one without a notion of nation and nationhood ? Of some sense and degree of commonality across those in and of that state regardless of other differences. If you are saying that the world should have no notions of nationalism then in effect you are saying, as far as I can grasp, that there should therefore be no states either. One world. One citizenship. One love. All ideas I have much sympathy for as an ideal but I do not think such hopes are a realistic route to unifying Cyprus in my lifetime ?

On a less ambitious scale, to my mind if we really want a stable unified Cypriot state then we have to start building those notions of a Cypriot nation. Of commonalities that are unique to those who call themselves Cypriot. Of searching for and celebrating those parts of Cypriot culture that are unique from just Greek culture or just Turkish culture because they are a unique mix of both in a certain ratio and in a certain geographical location called Cyprus. If we can do this then the creation of a single stable unified Cypriot nation, state and nation-state will become easy and inevitable imo. As long as we fail to do this, reject doing this, then I see no 'solution' that can lead to a stable unified Cyprus.

What is more this is something that is under our own personal control and choice. Any and every Cypriot individual can chose to believe that part of what 'being Cypriot' means, what it requires, is to have a mix of Greek and Turkish (and other) cultures blended together in a certain proportion under a Cypriot sky. I believe if a majority of Cypriots had chosen to believe this back in the 50s and 60s and 70s then we would today have a stable and unified Cypriot nation and state. Given that we did not and do not I believe that such personal choice is today the only route to such a goal that can possibly work. Wanting a unified Cyprus yet believing that can be achieved regardless of if there are any TC in it or any GC in it will not and can not, imo, lead us to a stable unified nation or state. To my mind it can only lead us to where we are now or worse in the future.

This then would be my answer to what Cypriots should be doing, trying to do, as individuals and as collections of individuals if we genuinely want unification, be they TC, GC or any other kind of Cypriot.

[Sotos]

From Wikipedia:

A nation state is a state in which a great majority shares the same culture and is conscious of it. The nation state is an ideal in which cultural boundaries match up with political ones.[1] According to one definition, "a nation state is a sovereign state of which most of its subjects are united also by factors which defined a nation such as language or common descent."[2] It is a more precise concept than "country", since a country does not need to have a predominant ethnic group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

Having a "nation state" that is inclusive of people with different languages and religions is in my opinion far more difficult than what I suggested. We could have a "multinational state" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_state) but in my opinion it would be best to just be "citizens of Cyprus" instead of trying to make up some national fairy-tale that supposedly unites us all with some invisible bond.

What we will all have in common is love for our homeland, for the simple reason that this is the land we live in, so it is in our interests for it to be peaceful and prosperous and protect it from outsiders that want to take what is ours, and accept that the ultimate values of our country will be those of human rights, democracy and equality of all citizens without discrimination.

Note that this is not a case of "one world, one citizenship". As citizens of this country we will still want to protect our possessions from those who want to take them, and our values from those who don't share them and do not respect them. Now, if we could maintain our possessions and values in some greater country (e.g. a unified EU) then we could consider it.

[Paphitis]

From Wikipedia:

A nation state is a state in which a great majority shares the same culture and is conscious of it. The nation state is an ideal in which cultural boundaries match up with political ones.[1] According to one definition, "a nation state is a sovereign state of which most of its subjects are united also by factors which defined a nation such as language or common descent."[2] It is a more precise concept than "country", since a country does not need to have a predominant ethnic group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

Having a "nation state" that is inclusive of people with different languages and religions is in my opinion far more difficult than what I suggested. We could have a "multinational state" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_state) but in my opinion it would be best to just be "citizens of Cyprus" instead of trying to make up some national fairy-tale that supposedly unites us all with some invisible bond.

What we will all have in common is love for our homeland, for the simple reason that this is the land we live in, so it is in our interests for it to be peaceful and prosperous and protect it from outsiders that want to take what is ours, and accept that the ultimate values of our country will be those of human rights, democracy and equality of all citizens without discrimination.

Note that this is not a case of "one world, one citizenship". As citizens of this country we will still want to protect our possessions from those who want to take them, and our values from those who don't share them and do not respect them. Now, if we could maintain our possessions and values in some greater country (e.g. a unified EU) then we could consider it.

Without a notion of statehood or nationhood, your entire nation is just nothing other than a group of individuals living together, who are not connected by anything of any substance.

Cypriot culture will eventually die out.

USA is probably the most diverse country in the world. Try telling them that there is no American Nation, or identity. They got guns too, and you cruisin for a shootin at noon in them there hills!

Formulating a Cypriot National Identity much like what the Americans, Australians, and Canadians have done from people of all walks of life and religions is something to aspire to. I think it's actually quite critical. People can still practice their religions, speak their languages and do whatever they want but are united under one identity, flag and anthem.

All to be able to serve their country and military. Do you know how Nationalistic Americans are? Citizens will see uniformed servicemen and women in America, make a point to go up to them and thank them for their service. Airline Pilots and other workers are given paid leave to do their National Guard Reserve Obligations. It's actually quite incredible and I swear, if you were an American you would get goosebumps about their flag and anthem. Just like when you go to an NFL, Basketball, or baseball game in front of up to 100,000 people. When the Anthem is playing, every man, woman, child no matter what colour, religion or creed are standing and singing. If Cyprus can achieve that, then the Cyprus Problem can not continue. That's the battle now. That's our war.

If the USA can do it then I really can't see why Cyprus can't do it.

Remember, that only a few decades ago, Blacks were sitting at the back of the bus, and were even lynched at trees by KKK but today Black Americans are very much part of the American culture, and Nation. A few idiots who want to perpetuate the division of Cyprus will talk about the past, but the past in America is just history, and recorded in the books but everyone is united today as Americans.

That should be the goal for the GCs. And to be honest, I think the GCs can do it easily. It's the TCs who can't do it and will never allow it because they want to keep what they stole. Not all of them, but the majority.

So when we talk about racism and fanaticism, I think the TCs outperform the GCs by a country mile in this area. GCs like Americans are more forward looking.

And let's not all jump on our high horses proclaiming that we are the arch anti racists. To me, such things are just fabricated lies and feel good virtue signals. Racism still exists in America, as it does in Canada and Australia. It's just that it is controlled under the letter of discrimination laws, constitutions (US Bill of Rights) and the courts.

We can all be racists, GCs included, but forming a Cypriot National Identity like the Americans have formed an American National Identity and like Australia has formed an Australian National Identity is key to Cyprus' survival. And since the Turks don't want Cyprus to survive, they are against this.

[Paphitis]

GCs and TCs have razing prospects and opportunities in the future. There are only 800,000 of us with untold wealth at the bottom of the ocean waiting to be exploited.

The TCs want to hand it all over to Turkey, thinking they will be able to exploit this wealth through Turkey on their own. Nothing can be further from the truth. Not only will Turkey not help them, but Turkey will eventually eradicate the TC presence and their unique Cypriot culture and with that any hope of forming a Cypriot Identity.

On the other hand, Cyprus could end up like another Dubai, or Singapore but that is only going to happen in a united Cyprus with Turkey well and truly gone.

It amazes me how the TCs can't actually see it and are proactively trying to destroy any prospects Cyprus may have. They are themselves committing suicide.

Under a Cypriot National Identity, people will still be free to practice their religion or not practice at all if they don't want to. They can speak their native tongues. Watch serials on TV in their own language. Listen to their music, and cook their traditional foods. None of that need to change. People can do what they want.

But the Cypriot National Identity can include all that diversity which isn't all that diverse when you compare to USA, Canada and Australia so it should be 100 times easier to achieve as well. Those who don't want that will point to 1963, 1967, 1974, 1955 and even 1571.

But as I said, not long ago American Blacks were swinging from trees in front of their wife and children. Now that is definitely heartbreaking. Look at them now and how quickly things have changed. American history is a lot more brutal than Cypriot History. For instance, look at the American Civil War. American against American over the slave trade and against British Imperialism. Anything that has occurred in Cyprus is a mere civil disobedience compared to all that.

And despite all that bloody history, Black Americans never gave up on being Americans. They served their country, died for their country and continue to serve today.

The TCs have given up on being Cypriot. And that is our biggest challenge now.

[repulsewarrior]

...indeed, the USA is, a BBF. So too Canada, although culturally a mosaic, unlike the American melting pot; but as dwellers, in defending Universal Principals, a Rule of Law, Freedom, and Liberty, they are the same.

Cyprus too, may choose to be a Modern Country, beyond the "Nation State", a State where Individuals have Freedom, without further distinction or discrimination; through their own acts, these merits. And, where there is Liberty because as majorities, through self-representation in their own territorial jurisdictions, they may demonstrate their good-will as Persons toward others, by providing for the special needs of the minorities that live among them with recognition, trust, and respect.

One Flag is not hard to understand, so too the many flags that fly along with it.

...in my Cyprus there would be many enclaves that spot the whole island, with the "Green Line" little changed, that would result, beside the Republic and its Government, at the level of Constituent Assemblies, the obligation to serve an electorate that is island wide. The biggest advantage that i see in that, is how in each Assembly these separate jurisdictions would compete with each other for its attention; it assures diversity within the Constituency, beside promoting Free Movement, Association, and Expression as Cypriots. But, of course, only Cypriots, as Cypriots, could decide for such Constitutional reform: to "be" an Individual, and to "be" a Person.

[repulsewarrior]

...here is something that pisses me off, although not the messenger,

http://www.cna.org.cy/WebNews-en.aspx?a ... 55f8ba6b55

http://www.cna.org.cy/WebNews-en.aspx?a ... c7e607b4b1

...does it take a technocrat to tell us this is true? Now, the Leadership will move forward, faster, more assured, (not).

All the more reason to identify, "Greeks" and "Turks", as a Cypriot, for who they are, if they are against this.

...indeed, i am a Cypriot if you will; no "Greek", no "Turk": my bane.

[Robin Hood]

...here is something that pisses me off, although not the messenger,

http://www.cna.org.cy/WebNews-en.aspx?a ... 55f8ba6b55

http://www.cna.org.cy/WebNews-en.aspx?a ... c7e607b4b1

...does it take a technocrat to tell us this is true? Now, the Leadership will move forward, faster, more assured, (not).

All the more reason to identify, "Greeks" and "Turks", as a Cypriot, for who they are, if they are against this.

...indeed, i am a Cypriot if you will; no "Greek", no "Turk": my bane.

An admirable sentiment .... all Cypriots as CYPRIOTS without the qualifier Greek or Turkish, but it will never happen!

Just drive around Limassol and compare the number of properties flying the GREEK flag and those flying the CYPRIOT flag. The overwhelming majority are Greek. The Cypriots I know are all GC’s and as a group, mainly refugees from the North of the line. The same hatred of ‘the other side’ has been bred into their children.

When the dividing line first opened I took a Greek Cypriot friend of my wife’s and her daughter over the line to go back to where she used to live Morphou (Guzelyurt) as her husband refused to take them. We found her childhood home and it was occupied by what was obviously quite a poor family. The ‘Turkish’ lady occupant was taken aback by the visitors but was very polite and invited the friend and her daughter inside to look around.

Our GC friend virtually ignored her and pushed the woman’s curious children away. It was a side of her character I had never seen before and took me by surprise, I found her attitude embarrassing! She toured the house in anger and was most off-hand to the Turkish(?) occupier, although she tried to be friendly, even offering us a drink, which our friend rejected with a wave of the hand.

When we left our friend said nothing, not even a ‘thank you’ to the Turkish woman, ignored her curious children and just walked out. I felt there was no need for her to act like this and I thanked the lady for her hospitality and said goodbye to her and her children, who were all smiles in response to an expression of ‘friendship’ from a complete stranger and a foreigner at that!

I ask you honestly ...... was the occupier to blame for being in what was our friends previous home? Was our friend right to treat the woman with open contempt? I would add our friend and her family live on a Limassol ‘refugee’ estate mainly built on Turkish land! From that day on I have never forgotten the 'other side' of her character this friend showed on that day.

All the time this hatred is allowed to fester, even encourage as a misdirected patriotism, the less likely Cyprus will even be a united land for all CYPRIOTS.

[erolz66]

All the time this hatred is allowed to fester, even encourage as a misdirected patriotism, the less likely Cyprus will even be a united land for all CYPRIOTS.

As ever all imo.

Well said. This is something that is down to each and every one of us and is entirely under our own personal control. If we want a unified Cyprus then we have to chose to believe that what it means to be Cypriot is to be shaped by a mix of cultures in a certain ratio. What makes a GC different from a Greek is the Turkish mixed in. What makes a TC different from a Turk is the Greek mixed in. We need to celebrate and love the result of this mix, Cypriotism, if we want to unify our country.

Mix flour and water with a pinch of yeast and salt, in the right ratio and bake and you get bread. Flour is not bread. Water is not bread.

Mix Greek culture and turkish culture with a pinch of marionite and armenian, in the right ratio and bake under a Cyprus sun and you get Cypriotism.

This is what we need to chose to believe.

[B25]

Our GC friend virtually ignored her and pushed the woman’s curious children away. It was a side of her character I had never seen before and took me by surprise, I found her attitude embarrassing! She toured the house in anger and was most off-hand to the Turkish(?) occupier, although she tried to be friendly, even offering us a drink, which our friend rejected with a wave of the hand.

Easy for an outsider to say. Let me ask you this RH. Do you own your own home here in Cyprus? If yes, did you work all you life to be able to buy this? If yes, then how the fuck would you feel if a couple of large GC fellas came to yours , raped your wife and daughter, murdered your son and brother, then let the house to complete strangers??

I guess you would be happy about that situation, yes? Like fuck you would even if it were not thee present occupants that were to blame.

So be fore you preach this BS to us, just take a moment and reflect what many, over 200,000 people went through during that time and you just calmly brush it of a we hate them, they hate us scenario.