Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

I have given you my reasons as to why I interpreted the lady being Turkish and not TC, because I used the direct and unambiguous description of the lady by HR. You on the other hand used the indirect and ambiguous description of the lady by HR. While you were left in the “fog” to her nationality by choosing the ambiguous statement, I was in “clarity” with my choosing of the unambiguous statement. It is not to say that the conclusion of her nationality were correct or incorrect regardless which of the ambiguities were used by either one of us, but the fact that you wanted to use the ambiguous statement to make your argument, you have failed to see the other side of the unambiguous statement. It is like a prosecutor who would use only the unsubstantiated evidence he feels he needs to convict someone in a court of law and ignore more substantive evidence which may actually acquit someone from prosecution.

As I see it

For there to be no ambiguity there has to be no ambiguity. You just ignore the ambiguity that was and is and always will be there in the post in order to reach the conclusion you did. Yet the ambiguity is still there in the post regardless of you choosing to ignore it. The use of quotes was not a mistake or an accident, it was done with some kind of specific intent.

Actually Erolz, I don't even think there were any ambiguities in the way RH wrote "Turkish" with quotes, question mark and with nothing at all with, but just Turkish. In ALL 3 times Turkish was written in one form or the other to address the lady at the house in the north, therefore, to any impartial jury, we have to believe that this was written deliberately by RH because he believed her to be Turkish, because at no time did RH even address the woman in the slightest way to be a TC, but kept referring to her as "Turkish".

3 x Turkish of some sort
0 x TC of any sort

CASE CLOSED!

[Maximus]

You are just making it up as you go along,

Constitutional amendments are made by simple majority vote in independent democratic countries.

Actually you are the one who is making it up here. Just check what the legal requirements are for changing the written constitution in countries that have such like say the US or Germany or hundreds of other examples and you will see that in fact the idea that constitutions can be changed by a simple majority vote is utter nonsense.

On the one hand you are saying, these "legal rights" needs to be challenged in a court of law. But on the other hand you are saying that the TC's have a right to a veto against the legislative agenda of the majority. Which basically renders any legal redress as non existent. <--- this should give you a clue that the legal rights of the TC's are legally invalid. But you are still clueless.

No I am not saying that. You are saying I am saying that which is not the same thing. I am saying that for something to be done legally it must be done according to the law as it is written. You just deciding that something as it is written in law is 'unjust' does not mean you can then just unilaterally ignore the law as it is written and use force and murder to silence those who oppose such illegal changes.

So on one foot then, you say that these rights the TC's were given, (under duress I will add) may have been unfair, but you continue to believe that they are "your rights" to discriminate against another race. This would make you a racist by the way.

I am saying that you can not just ignore the law as it is written by force and claim that such action is legal. It is not. When you take something grated to someone via legal means by using illegal means, that is the definition of theft.

In the real world, your redonkeylous inept opinion creates conflicts, theft of property and unjust systems that are destined to implode.

Cyprus did implode in 74 and we are living with the result today. A major factor in that implosion was this very notion that GC can unilaterally ignore what is in written and agreed law if they alone decide it is unfair and then use force against anyone who opposes such actions.

You are talking nonsense Sir,

You have said what I have said you have said and I will also add that the law you are referring to was created by force in the first place because at no time were the GC's democratic rights and wishes respected. They accepted the 1960's agreements under duress. I know, you will argue and debate this.

But I will also add that you are distorting history, because Makarios proposed 13 constitutional amendments that were vetoed / denied by the TC's. They took the @legal route as you say they should have. The amendments were to make Cyprus democratic and fair for all citizens but legal redress was denied and of course it would be if one side can pervert the course of justice to maintain their super privileged position. Then the TC's withdrew from government. They had plans and colluded with Turkey to set up the TRNC. I know, you will argue and debate this.

your straw man arguments are now going round in circles and requires lots of explaining. I got straight to the point many posts ago based on the implosion of this system and the results we have today.

the fact remains after all you have said trying to defend your arbitrary position;

The TC's want disproportionate rights in government, disproportionate shares in the treasury, a veto against the legislative agenda of the majority, to keep the disproportionate amount of property that they stole and maintain this all with Turkish guarantees (foreign military force), and racial segregation with quotas.

All with help from constant threats and harassment by Turkey to strong arm the GC's in to submission.

Is this not the case?

How are GC's at fault here, now, today, in finding a solution?

[erolz66]

CASE CLOSED!

Except for the question why were quotes used in the initial description of the woman ?

[Londonrake]

CASE CLOSED!

Except for the question why were quotes used in the initial description of the woman ?

Transgender?

[erolz66]

The TC's want disproportionate rights in government, disproportionate shares in the treasury, a veto against the legislative agenda of the majority, to keep the disproportionate amount of property that they stole and maintain this all with Turkish guarantees (foreign military force), and racial segregation with quotas.

I am TC and I do not want any of those things. I am TC and I reject BBF as a basis for a solution. A solution based on fear is not a solution, it is just a reformulation of the same old problem. What I want is an actual solution. A removal of the cause of fear. What I want is to believe that in a unitary Cypriot state a majority of Cypriots will see me as a TC as a fundamental and necessary component of the Cypriot nation, of what defines us both as Cypriots distinct from Greeks or Turks. What I want is to believe that should the GC community in the future seek something that for me as a TC is an anathema for me you will not just force that on me against my will and against legality simply because you deem such 'just'. Believe that I will not be discriminated against because of the type of Cypriot I am. Believe that revenge will not be sought on me and my community for the sins of my fathers. Believe that should I face discrimination or abuse or intimidation for no other reason that I am TC and not GC that you would stand up for me as a fellow Cypriot against such things.

When you refuse to accept that the illegal historic acts of your community against mine were not illegal, but were in fact both morally justified and legally valid, when they were not, you make it hard for me to believe these things. When you tell me that in effect the illegal murder of my uncle in 64 was a justified and legal act, you make it hard for me to believe these things. When you tell me that the problem is simply my unreasonable demands and my greed, you make it hard for me to believe these things. When you tell me your community needs to do nothing, you make it hard for me to believe these things.

When the likes of B25 and others here tell me I am not even a Cypriot but I am a Turk and that means by their definition I am a thief and a barbarian not fit or deserving of the rights and respect as an individual that civilised people deserve, it makes it hard for me to believe these things.

Now for the record I do not judge the entire Cypriot community based on what goes on here in this weird dystopian forum. I personally would be willing to vote tomorrow for a unitary state with no special exceptions for my community but I would do so more in hope than in certainty that I have nothing to fear. However if we are ever to get to such a vote what I need to be able to do is take my arguments to my fellow TC and make my case that BBF is not a solution. That a real solution can be found. One where there is nothing to fear. You and the GC community, what you say and how you behave can either help support me in my arguments and the case I make or you can undermine such. This thread is just one example of many where I would say you by your own choices and actions and words undermine my ability to make my case to my fellow TC. You could chose to behave differently, in ways that I could then use to support my case to my fellow TC. That is your choice.

I suspect however you are unable to give me what I need because I think you are still fighting the same old propaganda battles that our communities have been fighting for over half a century now and that have got us nothing but bad outcomes. I am willing to take a new approach in the hope that we can achieve a new and better outcome. I do not think you are. I think you still believe you can get everything you want without having to change at all, without having to concede anything in those narrative just as long as you stick to your half century old narratives that the problem is all us and nothing to do with you. If that is what you believe then I think you are wrong and I weep for Cyprus' future in the face of such.

[repulsewarrior]

...and what about the Communal Chamber, talking Constitution.

...why do both the "Greeks" and the "Turks" mention not a word about it?

...i suggest that it is there that Cypriots may come to a unanimous agreement, as Communities, for the Legislature's consideration, toward drafting the changes to the Constitution that as Individuals, Cypriots see a need for.

...i suggest the blame is not worth assessing to one or the other. In Leadership, neither showed any intention of "being" Cypriot, (or follow the rules). And i will add, about half the population at every election, despite being torn apart for decades, are Cypriot (minded). It is the Political elite that must "change their mentality", because after all these years, both are culpable in representing Cypriots as "Greeks" and "Turks", it only serves "them"; the People, it seems, are (have been) clear.

...if the truth be told, Cyprus is not made up of Greeks and Turks, yet it is true, there is no denying that Cypriots are mostly Greek, and Turkish. Cypriots, (as Persons, a constituency), are gay, too; does that make all Cypriots gay, or a gay person in Cyprus, Cypriot? Does it mean that as a Constituency that they should have a right to veto the Republic's Legislation? Obviously not.

You do not need to be any kind of a Person, to be a Cypriot. Cypriots are Cypriots, like Americans are Americans, Canadians are Canadian, the Swiss are Swiss, all BBFs i might add, not just a Person, an Individual. Your rights as an Individual are not usurped from you, because you "belong" to a Constituency; rather these Constituencies recognise and respect this Freedom, in Liberty, as a "majority" with their own Agenda, demonstrating the capacity to provide for the special needs of "minorities" living among them as well.

Sovereignty should not be the issue: Akinci is in the perfect position to make this very clear.

[Sotos]

You are confusing what is right with what is legal. They are not the same thing. If someone is defined in law as a slave then legally they are a slave. When slavery was legally abolished in Britain, slave owners did say their property was being stolen from them and they were paid compensation for that loss (the former slaves were paid nothing) because that was the only LEGAL way to abolish slavery.

I am not confusing anything. What I am saying is that what matters to me is what is right, and not necessarily what is legal. Before 1960 we were a British colony and what was legal was imposed by the British to serve their own interests. Then we get "independence" and again what is legal is imposed by the British to serve their own interests!! Where did our supposed independence go?? Ideally "right" and "legal" should be the same thing, and we should struggle to make them the same.

I agree with Maximus that for most things the way to align what is legal with what is right is through democracy. People debate the issues, a majority of people is convinced that something is wrong and should be changed, they elect their representatives and those representatives make the reforms. But when what is wrong is the system itself and you can't promote change by democratic means then there is simply no "legal" way to right the wrongs.

So if you want to say that taking away those privileges from the TCs was illegal, then yes it was illegal, but it was not wrong. The murder of your uncle on the other hand was both illegal and most importantly wrong. Taking away unfair privileges given to a group of people is by no means equivalent to taking the lives of innocent people.

And... paying compensations to former slave owners for losing their "property"?? Never heard of that and frankly it sounds ridiculous. So basically slave "expropriation"! You aren't free because you and your ancestors have been wronged all this time and now this wrong is recognized as such and undone, but you are now free because the government purchased you from your former master and let you free!!

[Maximus]

The TC's want disproportionate rights in government, disproportionate shares in the treasury, a veto against the legislative agenda of the majority, to keep the disproportionate amount of property that they stole and maintain this all with Turkish guarantees (foreign military force), and racial segregation with quotas.

I am TC and I do not want any of those things. I am TC and I reject BBF as a basis for a solution. A solution based on fear is not a solution, it is just a reformulation of the same old problem. What I want is an actual solution. A removal of the cause of fear. What I want is to believe that in a unitary Cypriot state a majority of Cypriots will see me as a TC as a fundamental and necessary component of the Cypriot nation, of what defines us both as Cypriots distinct from Greeks or Turks. What I want is to believe that should the GC community in the future seek something that for me as a TC is an anathema for me you will not just force that on me against my will and against legality simply because you deem such 'just'. Believe that I will not be discriminated against because of the type of Cypriot I am. Believe that revenge will not be sought on me and my community for the sins of my fathers. Believe that should I face discrimination or abuse or intimidation for no other reason that I am TC and not GC that you would stand up for me as a fellow Cypriot against such things.

When you refuse to accept that the illegal historic acts of your community against mine were not illegal, but were in fact both morally justified and legally valid, when they were not, you make it hard for me to believe these things. When you tell me that in effect the illegal murder of my uncle in 64 was a justified and legal act, you make it hard for me to believe these things. When you tell me that the problem is simply my unreasonable demands and my greed, you make it hard for me to believe these things. When you tell me your community needs to do nothing, you make it hard for me to believe these things.

When the likes of B25 and others here tell me I am not even a Cypriot but I am a Turk and that means by their definition I am a thief and a barbarian not fit or deserving of the rights and respect as an individual that civilised people deserve, it makes it hard for me to believe these things.

Now for the record I do not judge the entire Cypriot community based on what goes on here in this weird dystopian forum. I personally would be willing to vote tomorrow for a unitary state with no special exceptions for my community but I would do so more in hope than in certainty that I have nothing to fear. However if we are ever to get to such a vote what I need to be able to do is take my arguments to my fellow TC and make my case that BBF is not a solution. That a real solution can be found. One where there is nothing to fear. You and the GC community, what you say and how you behave can either help support me in my arguments and the case I make or you can undermine such. This thread is just one example of many where I would say you by your own choices and actions and words undermine my ability to make my case to my fellow TC. You could chose to behave differently, in ways that I could then use to support my case to my fellow TC. That is your choice.

I suspect however you are unable to give me what I need because I think you are still fighting the same old propaganda battles that our communities have been fighting for over half a century now and that have got us nothing but bad outcomes. I am willing to take a new approach in the hope that we can achieve a new and better outcome. I do not think you are. I think you still believe you can get everything you want without having to change at all, without having to concede anything in those narrative just as long as you stick to your half century old narratives that the problem is all us and nothing to do with you. If that is what you believe then I think you are wrong and I weep for Cyprus' future in the face of such.

Understood,

but nothing that I have written, especially in that quote above isn't true.

This is the collective mindset, expectations and official position of the TC community as reflected through their leaders. Many of them actually believe in it is well.

This is what the TC's have been demanding from the GC's for decades. The GC's have been living the discrimination from your community for centuries but it continues.

I am just telling it as I see it, so dont shoot the messenger.

[erolz66]

So if you want to say that taking away those privileges from the TCs was illegal, then yes it was illegal, but it was not wrong. The murder of your uncle on the other hand was both illegal and most importantly wrong. Taking away unfair privileges given to a group of people is by no means equivalent to taking the lives of innocent people.

If you look, what I said was that it was illegal. If you take something from someone illegally then by definition that is, in law, theft. How do you think you can take something away from someone that is theirs in law without being able (or willing) to use the law to do so ? The 'easy' way, if you are dominant, is by force up to and including murder. Was that 'right' ? You appear to accept that it was right, so by your own standards that makes you as guilty as those who used such force and did such murders, does it not ? That is how the GC community took the TC rights in law away that you deem were unfair and that is how Turkey took away peoples rights to property and life, using the justification that what had been done to TC in the previous 10 years was 'wrong'. The only real difference is who does the deciding, outside of legality, as to what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' and has the dominance to be able to use force to rectify what they deem is 'wrong'.

[erolz66]

This is what the TC's have been demanding from the GC's for decades. The GC's have been living the discrimination from your community for centuries but it continues.

I am just telling it as I see it, so dont shoot the messenger.

And telling it as I see it, if what your community had wanted after the end of colonial rule had been an independent Cypriot state, based on a notion of a common Cypriot national identity that included, indeed required, both GC and TC, one where Cyprus was ruled by Cypriots and only Cypriots, then even if we had still of made 'unfair demands', things would today be very different.

None of this, for me, is about blame and none of this is to say that GC should not have wanted enosis and not independence after the end of British rule. How they chose to seek to achieve that in the face of TC opposition to such a future for themselves is another matter. It is however to say we need to understand what has led us to where we are today, right or wrong, and outside of our respective 50 plus year narratives of 'its all their fault, we are the victims, they are the oppressors' if we are to have any chance of finding a better future for all Cypriots. Just telling ourselves over and over that 'its all their fault, they are the ones that have to change, we need to do nothing' is not going to get us anywhere as far as I can see. It certainly has not got us anywhere good to date.