Cyprus-Forum.com

[mikedaventry]

So If we make a proposal of splitting Turkey into 2 between a Turkish and a Kurdish state, do you think Turkey will welcome the proposal? Why the hell should we welcome a proposal that we don't agree with a single letter?

That's not what I'm saying, and you know it. What I'm saying is that if the Greek Cypriots really wanted an agreement, they would be prepared to sit down and talk. Clearly, the interest is not there. And who can blame the Republic? They're far richer, they're in the EU, and they're living a much more comfortable life. Why would they want to give up their position?

Allow me to quote not a Cypriot official, but you:

How about to begin by Turkey finally accepting that the solution of the Cyprus problem can not be the one that will violate the human and democratic rights of the Cypriot people?

I'm afraid to say, my friend, that your position is quite the same as your government. Like I said earlier, in order for a solution to come about, both sides have to want it. Negotiation is not about making and meeting demands, it's about compromise and concessions. And if the Greek Cypriots really wanted a solution more than anything else, they would push for it, and would at the very least win international praise for its efforts.

I weclome Mr Papadopoulos's commitment to "surely look into all those included in the statement". Given that the European Commission has expressed its support for Turkey's initiative, the Greek Cypriots had to at least grace it with their point of view, and they have.

Where I disagree with Mr Papadopoulos is over his rejection of the Turkish proposal consisting any new position. He doesn't think it "can be considered as an initiative or as a new beginning", he says. But no-one has really been talking about the Cyprus issue at this level since Turkey's accession talks began in October last year. They are talking about it now. Is that not a new beginning? Dialogue is better than no dialogue, is it not?

The most fundamental question that I ask of all Greek Cypriot (and, indeed, Turkish Cypriot) members of this board is: "do you want a peace agreement?" If your answer is "yes", then how can it possibly achieved without talk?

[Viewpoint]

mikedaventry firstly welcome to the forum.

I couldnt agree with you more and I have argued that dialogue and negotiaitons are the only way forward. But donr forget one side could lose a great deal if they reject another plan, this would definately lead to recognition so the GC leaders does not want to play ball until he is 100% certain he can get what he wants, which believe me is not a BBF as in the Annan plan.

[Piratis]

Turkey acts according to EU criteria and if she steps out of line the EU will warn her but in the case of the "RoC" which she does not recognize the approach is different and the EU realize this.

Turkey has already been warned and it was clearly said to her that she is obligated to open her ports to Republic of Cyprus. If they don't understand this then they can ignore this order until their accession process will be terminated.

What I'm saying is that if the Greek Cypriots really wanted an agreement, they would be prepared to sit down and talk.

Would you be willing to sit and talk about how your human rights will be violated?

Negotiation is not about making and meeting demands, it's about compromise and concessions. And if the Greek Cypriots really wanted a solution more than anything else, they would push for it, and would at the very least win international praise for its efforts.

Would you be willing to compromise your human and democratic rights?

The Turks want to "compromise" part of what does not belong to them in the first place that they violently took with their invasion, and we are supposed to compromise even our basic human rights? No way.

[Perastikos]

Turkey has already been warned and it was clearly said to her that she is obligated to open her ports to Republic of Cyprus. If they don't understand this then they can ignore this order until their accession process will be terminated.

This is not an issue this is the total koroidia from the Turks they have nothing to loose they just playing with our stupidity.

The recognition means nothing for us, is just a ping pong game between us and the Turks and the Turkey can't loose nothing from this game, for them the only thing it have some point now is to play.

[mikedaventry]

Would you be willing to sit and talk about how your human rights will be violated?

Look, I'm not quite sure where all this human rights business has come from. I myself have not mentioned it at all so far. Of course human rights are important, of course they should not be compromised - who said anything to the contrary? Please go through the two posts I have submitted to this forum so far (yes, there are only two before this one), and tell me exactly where I talked about taking away anyone's human and democratic rights.

What I'm talking about is something that the Greek and Turkish Cypriots have not managed to do since April 2004 - talk. In my original post, I said Turkey deserved credit for initiating a fresh period of talks. That is all. I did not mention anything about the content of the talks, nor did I suggest anything about withholding Greek Cypriot human rights. Nothing of the sort.

I am not a Greek Cypriot. But nor am I a Turkish Cypriot. I would suggest you read my posts a little more carefully before you decide, "oh, he's another Turkish sympathiser. He's against us. He wants Turkish Cypriots to rule the entire island."

Is it a requirement for all new members of this board to declare upon registration which side they support? If so, I'm afraid I won't be able to do that, because I "support" neither side. Yes, I do closely follow the Cypriot issue, and yes, I do believe the Turkish Cypriots are in dire need of greater rights than they have at present. But I also believe these rights should not be at the expense of the Greek Cypriots. And the only way a solution is ever going to happen is if the two sides talk. Am I misguided when I say the Greek Cypriots are less than enthusiastic?

[Perastikos]

Am I misguided when I say the Greek Cypriots are less than enthusiastic?

No. You are in the right path.

[Piratis]

Look, I'm not quite sure where all this human rights business has come from. I myself have not mentioned it at all so far. Of course human rights are important, of course they should not be compromised - who said anything to the contrary? Please go through the two posts I have submitted to this forum so far (yes, there are only two before this one), and tell me exactly where I talked about taking away anyone's human and democratic rights.

Then I am afraid you are cluless regarding the demands of the Turks. Go study them a bit and then tell me if you would accept for yourself the kind of compromises that Greek Cypriots are asked to make on their human and democratic rights so that Turkey will "compromise" and give part of what they stole from us in 1974.

Am I misguided when I say the Greek Cypriots are less than enthusiastic?

When we were talking for 30 years and at no point the Turks accepted that we can have even our basic human and democratic rights then don't you think it is natural that "talks" don't make us very enthusiastic anymore?

The fact is that in todays world this "talks" are shaped by the balance of power. The powerful forces on the weak his demands and the results are things like the Annan partition plan.
What we need now is not "talks" but to strengthen our position that would give us more negotiating power in the future. With the current balance of power apparently no fair solution can be found with talks.

[mikedaventry]

Then I am afraid you are cluless regarding the demands of the Turks. Go study them a bit and then tell me if you would accept for yourself the kind of compromises that Greek Cypriots are asked to make on their human and democratic rights so that Turkey will "compromise" and give part of what they stole from us in 1974.

Please don't patronise me. I am very well aware of Turkish demands, and know enough about the events of the past thirty years to know that this is not something to be solved overnight.

When we were talking for 30 years and at no point the Turks accepted that we can have even our basic human and democratic rights then don't you think it is natural that "talks" don't make us very enthusiastic anymore?

Absolutely. Here, I couldn't agree with you more. Thirty-two years on, the world should be wondering why there are listening to calls for peace at all, after having to put up with an opposition that refuses to talk.

But my point is that things have changed. There has been a significant change in government in the north since the Annan plan referendum. Rauf Denktash, who - and let us be honest - was the biggest obstacle in front of negotiations with the Greek Cypriots, is now out of the picture. In his place is the man who pushed so strongly in the Turkish side for the Annan plan to be discussed in the first place. Mehmet Ali Talat is president, and he has a loyal government behind him.

The Greek Cypriots have never negotiated with this Turkish Cypriot government. It is this government that offered handing over ports, and it is with this government that crossings between the north and south were allowed for the first time. These are just a few concessions, but even you must accept they were unthinkable under Denktash?

I believe these are good signs, signs that is hope in Cyprus. I believe that the Greek Cypriots would do well to forget the Turkish demands made in the past, and sit down anew to talk peace. Like I said, they have not negotiated with the current Turkish Cypriot government, and it is my belief that the Greeks will find it to be far more receptive than its predecessors. And if the Turks do prove to be as stubborn as they were before, there is no-one who could accuse the Greeks of "not trying".

What we need now is not "talks" but to strengthen our position that would give us more negotiating power in the future. With the current balance of power apparently no fair solution can be found with talks.

What you say here, my friend, is something completely different. You're not talking about negotiating anymore, you're talking about the Greek Cypriots gaining a stronger foothold and further sympathy in world politics. By saying this, you are suggesting that you want the Greek Cypriots to reach a point where they are strong enough to dictate their demands on the Turks. You are saying that, at present, the balance is too much in favour of the Turks, and this will reflect unfavourably on you in any negotiations.

I can think of many words to describe that kind of attitude, but I'll stick with "cynical" for now.

[Piratis]

mikedaventry, what is your interest in Cyprus? Is it the same interest that the official UK and US goverments have, of keeping our island divided for serving their own interests?

But my point is that things have changed.

Nothing has changed. The ones who manage things in Turkey is the army. Not Talat or any other Turkish Cypriot puppet, but not even Erdogan himself. What the Turks are trying to change is their image. The Americans and the British told them "Pretend that you have changed and we will pretend that we believe you", all in the game of trying to push Turkey in the EU.

Unfortunately there was no real change of policy. The Turks still support what they have always supported: partition (standard or disguised like the Annan plan) with no respect to our human and democratic rights.

this Turkish Cypriot government

There is no such thing as "Turkish Cypriot government". Government of which country? I hope you do know that northern Cyprus, just like the rest of Cyprus, was inhabited by a Greek Cypriot majority that was ethnically cleansed in 1974 to be replaced by mainland Turkish settlers.

We can have talks with the Turkish minority, not with a "government" that is the result of the violation of the sovereignty of RoC and the human and democratic rights of Greek Cypriots and also represents the illegal Turkish settlers who as you know participate in the voting of this "government".

You're not talking about negotiating anymore, you're talking about the Greek Cypriots gaining a stronger foothold and further sympathy in world politics.

No. We are not looking for sympathy. The violation of the sovereignty of our country and our human, legal and democratic rights violations are crystal clear. If for some (e.g. UK/US) these are not enough to win their sympathy because they are used to support undemocratic regimes then there is nothing more we can do.

By saying this, you are suggesting that you want the Greek Cypriots to reach a point where they are strong enough to dictate their demands on the Turks.

"dictate demands"? No. I am talking about Republic of Cyprus to be able to enforce its laws over the whole area that has sovereignty, just like UK has control over its own land.
We are asking for nothing more than legality and respect of human rights and democracy according to the principles that exist in all other EU countries. We are not asking anything special. Both TCs and GCs should be able to live in Cyprus with the same rights like every other EU citizen.

On the other hand the Turks are trying to use their power to force on us something against our democratic and human rights, that is tailored to their needs and exists nowhere else in the world. The things that are trying to force on us are things that you wouldn't accept for yourself. We are no second category EU citizens, and you should not expect from us to accept such things, or even discuss them.

[Viewpoint]

mikedaventry you have lot to learn about Piratis, he is hardliner who states human right and democracy for all as long as it is Greek Cypriot style and administered, if you object to this you are dubbed a thief, murderer, anatolian parasite, you want to beneift on his loss etc etc, if you dont agree with him he reverts back to saying that the balance of power will change and they will wage a war to get what is theirs.
You have already come accross his we dont need to talk rehtoric but as I stated his favourite and only arguements are TCs should shut and accept being a minority just like any other in a unitary state and Cyprus becomes a Greek island where the human rights and democracy will be administered by you guessed it the GCs.

I have argued with Piratis for days trying to explain what you have said that if we do not talk we will not find the solution we seek, but I have come to the conclusion that not only Piratis but the GC administration will do everything possible to avoid returning to the negotiating table, this is evident from all the shit coming out of the south as we speak. They are playing their EU leverage card to extract their demands from Turkey piece by piece.