Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

The people are sovereign, not a few hundred MPs. When parliament voted overwhelmingly in 2016 to go to the electorate for a decision they surrendered their rights in the matter. To subsequently renege on that, particularly after again going to the country in 2017 promising to honour the result, is nothing short of a national betrayal.

Those MPs that voted time after time FOR the deal brokered between the EU and the UKs government over two years - did they "renege" on the referendum result by voting FOR the only deals put before them in parliament ? Those MPs that voted AGAINST such a deal, are they respecting the referendum result ? Or are they only respecting it if they claim the reason why they voted against it was that it was not brexit enough for them ?

The route out is to honour the referendum result - as promised.

The route out is to respect democracy both in terms of the result and in terms of agreeing how we should leave. Arguing that we must ride roughshod over and ignore democracy in terms of how we leave can only lead us to where we currently are. imo.

We had a referendum. We don’t need another on the matter.

We had a referendum on if we should leave. The next stage is agreeing how we should leave. This must also be done democratically. If MPs are thwarting the will of the people then the solution is change the MPs via GE (already tried once and did not help but made it worse) or to ask the people directly how they want to leave. You can not believe in democracy and argue how we leave the EU should not be down to the people but to a small minority section of MPs from only one end of the spectrum of leave remain. All with no regard for what the people want in terms of HOW we leave. Ask the people if we should, if they say yes, then ask them (directly or indirectly through their elected mps) how we should leave. That is the only democratic way forward. Seeking to deny anyone, parliament or the people, a right to a say in HOW we leave unless it matches your preference is not democratic in my book.

[erolz66]

Nigel Farage will be an MP in the next Parliament.

Oh boy, that's gonna make it a fun Parliament.

8th time lucky as they say. You could look at what odds you can get from a bookmaker on what the chances are that Fararge will win a seat in the next UK GE. The you could look at the odds for say Johnson still being PM after the next GE or even if he retains his seat in the next GE. Such estimates as to such outcomes are for me much more credible from bookmaker odds than they are from your loud mouth. Call me prejudice if you like.

Farage has spent 10 plus years as an mep telling the EU that it is shit. If he were to become an MP I doubt he will behave much differently in the commons in regard to the EU or to the commons itself. A vote for him is a vote for a MP that will just tell everyone else how shit they are. Some people want an MP that will represent their constituency and all those in it in a slightly more constructive manner than that, i would guess.

[Pyrpolizer]

There is no decision to be made. It's a plan for 2 borders allowing NI to leave the EU completely.

The only exclusion would be the ability for NI to remain aligned on a regulatory basis for a period of 4 years only, until 2025. NI will still be leaving the EU.

NI has already decided that they wanted to be a part of the UK, which means they prefer to leave the EU. The NI Assembly decision is a foregone conclusion.

Ah Pyro, but you have no clue about the English. They are not going to give Europe an inch.

Now as for Theresa's Deal. the Brits did not have any real issues with anything other than the Irish Backstop which was always the only matter they could no agree to. The new plan addresses these issues.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... exit-offer

But regardless, the EU have already suggested they are going to reject this plan, and from what Boris is saying, Britain is still leaving on the 31st.

Here is more about the new plan:

Ah,thanks for the useful link.
This is different from what I thought.

[cyprusgrump]

The people by majority chose to leave and the people should also chose by majority how we leave. That is democracy. You can waffle all you like, post reams and reams of irrelevance over and over and talk of groundhog day and blame everyone but yourself for these circular discussions that go no where but none of that will change the basics of what democracy means and requires.

No...

For the billionth time, there was a binary choice on the ballot paper and the people voted to leave...

The implications of leaving (both real and imaginary on both sides) were discussed for months beforehand. Everything from Nirvana to plagues of frogs were promised/threatened.

If any voter had any doubts about the ramifications of leaving they had the choice to vote Remain or abstain.

The people voted Leave.

And we must therefore Leave to respect that democratic decision.

And Leave means leaving the EU in its entirety, not with a 'deal' (although a FTA would obviously be preferable) and not being tied to any part of the EU's rules and regulations.

leave
/liːv/

verb

1. go away from.
"she left London on June 6"

Similar:
depart from
go away from
go from
withdraw from
retire from

You'll note there is no 'have another vote about it afterwards' mentioned there...

[erolz66]

The people by majority chose to leave and the people should also chose by majority how we leave. That is democracy. You can waffle all you like, post reams and reams of irrelevance over and over and talk of groundhog day and blame everyone but yourself for these circular discussions that go no where but none of that will change the basics of what democracy means and requires.

No...

For the billionth time, there was a binary choice on the ballot paper and the people voted to leave...

Yes the choice was binary. The means of implementing it are not. A vote to raise or lower taxes does not then negate the democratic need to agree how much to raise or lower them after such a vote.

And Leave means leaving the EU in its entirety, not with a 'deal' (although a FTA would obviously be preferable) and not being tied to any part of the EU's rules and regulations.

Yet the like of farage in the lead up to the referendum constantly referred to Norway and Switzerland as examples of countries not in the EU that are doing fine outside it, yet according to you everyone knew and was clear that leaving meant leaving the EU in its entirety and thus such examples were meaningless. I dont recall you pointing such out pre referendum ? It just does not add up. The fact is there are many credible intelligent non political people who have said categorically that when they voted to leave the EU it was based on the expectation of an agreed and managed exit that did not exclude things like a norway model and not on the basis of we will leave the EU in its entirety and all at the same minute without any agreement with the EU.

Is Norway in the EU ? You are mr binary. Is it in the EU or not ? If it is why did farage repeatedly use it an example of a country NOT in the EU that is doing well ? If it is not in the EU how could the UK under exactly the same system as Norway be in the EU when it is not. These contradictions are simply the result of you trying to force a bainariness on the universe that simply does not exist. Doing this will and can only lead to frustration on your part and by extension and inability to be able to hear any discussion that does not try and force this binaryness on the universe that does not and will not accept such.

[cyprusgrump]

The people by majority chose to leave and the people should also chose by majority how we leave. That is democracy. You can waffle all you like, post reams and reams of irrelevance over and over and talk of groundhog day and blame everyone but yourself for these circular discussions that go no where but none of that will change the basics of what democracy means and requires.

No...

For the billionth time, there was a binary choice on the ballot paper and the people voted to leave...

Yes the choice was binary.

Thank you, at last...

No point reading the rest of your repetitive blather...

The choice was Leave (i.e being out) or Remain (being in)...

I'm not sure why you have taken so long to comprehend that simple fact...

We voted Leave (i.e. being out of the EU) so leaving is the only option... There is no need for a second vote on it...

Sure, if the voting paper offered: -

Leave the EU
Remain half in and half out of the EU
Remain in the EU

And we'd voted half in and half out then perhaps a clarification vote would be required on the final deal.

But we didn't.

Binary choice. We voted Leave.

[erolz66]

Thank you, at last...

No point reading the rest of your repetitive blather...

The choice was Leave (i.e being out) or Remain (being in)...

I'm not sure why you have taken so long to comprehend that simple fact...

We voted Leave (i.e. being out of the EU) so leaving is the only option... There is no need for a second vote on it...

There is no need for another vote on if we should leave. There is a need for a vote on how we should leave. Either from MPs or the people direct. Either is fine with me but neither is apparently acceptable to you ? The idea that everyone who voted leave in 2016 did so knowing that that meant leaving all and every EU based institution all on the same day, despite prominent leavers like farage and many others constantly using Norway and Switzerland as examples of countries NOT in the EU in the lead up to the referendum and despite the evidence of intelligent, non political, individuals stating categorically that such was NOT their understanding at all when they voted, is not an idea I believe represents anything but convenient fictions in your head that you like to believe because if you can get enough other to believe the same you get what you want. The idea that all those who voted leave (or remain for that matter in 2016) did so in the full knowledge and understanding that leaving meant leaving every EU institution completely and all at the same point in time is just a fiction you are and seemingly have to keep telling yourself and us (over and over again) as far as I can tell.

[Pyrpolizer]

For the information of the forum:
https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/doc ... DL-AD(2007)008rev.aspx
Did you know that the Venice Commission of the EU Council has as from 2003 set rules for referendums?
The UK referendum is considered a question of principle.

28. The text submitted to referendum may be presented in various forms:
- a specifically-worded draft of a constitutional amendment, legislative enactment or other measure
- repeal of an existing provision
- a question of principle (for example: “Are you in favour of amending the Constitution to introduce a presidential system of government?”) or
- a concrete proposal, not presented in the form of a specific provision and known as a “generally-worded proposal” (for example: “Are you in favour of amending the Constitution in order to reduce the number of seats in Parliament from 300 to 200?”)21.

Here's what it also says:

It is preferable, therefore, for referendums on questions of principle or generally-worded proposals to be consultative. If they are legally binding, the subsequent procedure should be laid down in specific constitutional or legislative rules. It should be possible to appeal before the courts in the event that Parliament fails to act (point III.8.b).

Hence it's either upto the Parliament or the people themselves via referendum to approve the subsequent procedure.Or using Erolz' wording HOW the UK leaves the EU.

[Pyrpolizer]

https://www.venice.coe.int/webforms/doc ... DL-AD(2007)008rev-cor-e

[cyprusgrump]

Thank you, at last...

No point reading the rest of your repetitive blather...

The choice was Leave (i.e being out) or Remain (being in)...

I'm not sure why you have taken so long to comprehend that simple fact...

We voted Leave (i.e. being out of the EU) so leaving is the only option... There is no need for a second vote on it...

There is no need for another vote on if we should leave. There is a need for a vote on how we should leave. Either from MPs or the people direct. Either is fine with me but neither is apparently acceptable to you ? The idea that everyone who voted leave in 2016 did so knowing that that meant leaving all and every EU based institution all on the same day, despite prominent leavers like farage and many others constantly using Norway and Switzerland as examples of countries NOT in the EU in the lead up to the referendum and despite the evidence of intelligent, non political, individuals stating categorically that such was NOT their understanding at all when they voted, is not an idea I believe represents anything but convenient fictions in your head that you like to believe because if you can get enough other to believe the same you get what you want. The idea that all those who voted leave (or remain for that matter in 2016) did so in the full knowledge and understanding that leaving meant leaving every EU institution completely and all at the same point in time is just a fiction you are and seemingly have to keep telling yourself and us (over and over again) as far as I can tell.

When I started my business in 1990 I bought an answering machine second hand for £75 from a lovely lady in Epsom.

It was one of those old ones that had two cassette tapes in it - one for the outgoing message that was about thirty seconds long and a longer tape to record the incoming messages.

I recorded my own outgoing message saying, "Thank you for calling, I'm sorry that nobody is available to take your call at the moment. But please leave a message after the tome and one of our sales team will get back to you as soon as they can."

Of course, the 'sales team' was only me (also shipping, packing, marketing, accounting, etc.) but it allowed me to have the phone 'answered' when I was away and also pick up my messages from a call box when I was out visiting customers.

Later, I paid for a Serviced Office that could take my calls when I was out and answer the phone, "Hello, this is CyprusGrump's company, how can we help you?" and whatever the customer asked (sales/shipping/accounts) would reply, "I'm sorry, they're all busy at the moment, can I take a message and ask one of them to call you back?" And I would call them from a phone box, pick up the messages and call the customers back...

After that, I bought a mobile phone... It was a huge thing with a camcorder battery and the handset wired to the body of it. But it allowed me to be in touch with my customers 24/7 and I could answer customer calls wherever I was (expensively!) and respond to their issues or sales questions...

The reason for typing all of this is to point out that the outgoing message on my twin-cassette answering machine was less tedious and boringly predictable than your posts on Brexit!

And you, like Lordo consistently ignore any argument that contradicts your own position.

So as I said earlier I believe, there is little point engaging with you.