Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz66]

labour must refuse the election on the 15th of october because manchild will continue with his lies that he is close to a deal when he is not. the election must be after he returns from the eu to see what he has got. it is the only way to zip this liars mouth. why do you suppose he has asked for before 17th of october?

If the Tories stand in an election on the 15th on the basis that they will either secure a deal at the 17th EU meeting and if not come out on a no deal basis, then I have no problem with this. People are not stupid. They know the chances of him securing such a deal are low. They will vote on that basis. If he can secure a majority in such and election on such a basis that is not a problem. If there is majority support for such as expressed by Johnson winning a workable majority in such an election then as a democrat I do not have issue with this. If there is support for such then let's get it done sooner rather than later in my view.

there is another issue that even if the mps vote for the elction to take place on the 15th pf october the pm is legally allowed to change the date to be after 31st of october. currently we do not have the bill through as yet and will pass through the lords late friday. manchild said yesterday that he would not ask the queen to sign this bill. with parliament being shut down on monday unless the queen has signed the bill, the bill will be lost.

No one will support a GE via 2/3rds majority under ft act or by simple majority before the law is on the books. Once it is then if Johnson were to propose a bill that sets a specific date and overrides the fixed term Parliament act for this singular election, then that will become law and Johnson can not change the date without a new law. I do not trust him but I do not think he can just ignore such a law that has been passed by Parliament. It is only the vagaries of the fixed term Parliament act that would allow him to change the date. If the election is called by way of a bill / law and not the fixed term act then such a date change after the fact is not realistically possible imo.

[miltiades]

I have it from a very reliable source that the Clown is related to ...Erdogan !! I'm told that Erdogan has adviced the Clown to imprison,, for starters, all those Tory MPs who voted against the government, then abolish Parliament and declare himself the Sultan of the UK. The Clown in appreciation has to issue an apology to all Muslim women for calling them letter boxes and bank robbers.
By the way, the Clown's brother Joe Johnson has resigned his seat.

[Lordo]

labour must refuse the election on the 15th of october because manchild will continue with his lies that he is close to a deal when he is not. the election must be after he returns from the eu to see what he has got. it is the only way to zip this liars mouth. why do you suppose he has asked for before 17th of october?

If the Tories stand in an election on the 15th on the basis that they will either secure a deal at the 17th EU meeting and if not come out on a no deal basis, then I have no problem with this. People are not stupid. They know the chances of him securing such a deal are low. They will vote on that basis. If he can secure a majority in such and election on such a basis that is not a problem. If there is majority support for such as expressed by Johnson winning a workable majority in such an election then as a democrat I do not have issue with this. If there is support for such then let's get it done sooner rather than later in my view.

there is another issue that even if the mps vote for the elction to take place on the 15th pf october the pm is legally allowed to change the date to be after 31st of october. currently we do not have the bill through as yet and will pass through the lords late friday. manchild said yesterday that he would not ask the queen to sign this bill. with parliament being shut down on monday unless the queen has signed the bill, the bill will be lost.

No one will support a GE via 2/3rds majority under ft act or by simple majority before the law is on the books. Once it is then if Johnson were to propose a bill that sets a specific date and overrides the fixed term Parliament act for this singular election, then that will become law and Johnson can not change the date without a new law. I do not trust him but I do not think he can just ignore such a law that has been passed by Parliament. It is only the vagaries of the fixed term Parliament act that would allow him to change the date. If the election is called by way of a bill / law and not the fixed term act then such a date change after the fact is not realistically possible imo.

erol you may not have an issue with that but a lot of his supporters are stupid enough to believe his lies. he is a coward and wil luse everything he can and democrcy gives him a lot of power to abuse his power. how the hell can he ask the queen to shut down parliament for 5 weeks in such a crucial time and then to be the only person that can advice the queen what to do. this liar has no bounds and there is nothong he will not do to keep in power. he has managed to get himself locked in a cage and let jc have the key. let him saty there for a few weeks after all on tuesday the parliament shuts down for 5 weeks so it will make no difference. the election must be after the 17th when it is clear as to what he has to got and not what he can promise. jc has got him by the balls and it's no good letting him go till he loses his balls. at least his voice pitch will go up few notches

[Pyrpolizer]

Utter bollox as has been pointed out on here dozens of times before...

I've posted the video on numerous occasions of leavers and remainers pointing out what 'Leave' would mean...

You’ve fallen for the ‘re-framing’ process that the usual suspects indulge in when they want to bamboozle people. There’s no such thing as a ‘Hard Brexit’. Its Remainer code for ‘Leaving the EU’. They’ve renamed ‘Leaving’ as ‘Hard Brexit’, and are now telling you that ‘Leaving’ should mean lots of things that strangely enough seem a lot like stay in the EU.

All the way through the referendum they were telling us that voting to Leave meant exactly what they now term a Hard Brexit – no Single Market access, not being the Customs Union, no free trade deal. This was because at the time they were trying to scare people to stay in the EU. But people voted to Leave anyway.

Having lost the vote, they changed their tune, suddenly Leaving actually meant lots of other things that coincidentally seemed very like staying in the EU – being in the Single Market, accepting EU laws and the ECJ, being in the Customs union. And the thing that they had just months previously defined as ‘Leaving the EU’ was some terrible thing that the ‘Far Right’ was trying to ‘impose’ on the UK.

What do you mean they were telling ALL you people?

There are millions of British people who are not watching the news or the debates who voted to leave knowing it would happen 2 years later after negotiating the terms. Those people just trusted the Government would get them out with some sort of an agreement which would be acceptable to them anyway.
Therefore what YOU personally expected from voting to Leave was not the same as what everybody who voted to leave.
To be the same then the voting slip should clearly write "Leave the EU with or without a deal".
Hence the referendum question was not clear and it just stole the vote of a number of unsuspected citizens, and should be declared invalid.

Can you deny the fact that a certain number of those who voted to leave wouldn't do it if they knew it would be without deal?

Good grief...

The government sent a brochure to every single household in the country (cost £9M if I remember rightly) explaining what Leave meant and recommending Remain...

I've reproduced the last page below.

You Remoaners can't seriously still be claiming that there were millions of of people that didn't watch the news, had no access to the Internet, didn't discuss Brexit down the pub or with their family and who had their letter box nailed shut so they didn't get the government brochure?

Since you like calling your compatriots Remoaners you wouldn't mind calling you a Brexshitter would you?
So Brexshitter point me the line where it says voting to Leave means leaving with no deal.
The average Joe in the street 2 years ago KNEW that voting to Leave meant the Government would enter negotiations with the EU for upto 2 years to agree the terms of leaving. The average Joe also trusted his Government would do a good job.That's the reason millions of British voted to Leave and you hard Brexshitters cheated on them, knowing damn well the referendum was not clear.

[cyprusgrump]

Utter bollox as has been pointed out on here dozens of times before...

I've posted the video on numerous occasions of leavers and remainers pointing out what 'Leave' would mean...

You’ve fallen for the ‘re-framing’ process that the usual suspects indulge in when they want to bamboozle people. There’s no such thing as a ‘Hard Brexit’. Its Remainer code for ‘Leaving the EU’. They’ve renamed ‘Leaving’ as ‘Hard Brexit’, and are now telling you that ‘Leaving’ should mean lots of things that strangely enough seem a lot like stay in the EU.

All the way through the referendum they were telling us that voting to Leave meant exactly what they now term a Hard Brexit – no Single Market access, not being the Customs Union, no free trade deal. This was because at the time they were trying to scare people to stay in the EU. But people voted to Leave anyway.

Having lost the vote, they changed their tune, suddenly Leaving actually meant lots of other things that coincidentally seemed very like staying in the EU – being in the Single Market, accepting EU laws and the ECJ, being in the Customs union. And the thing that they had just months previously defined as ‘Leaving the EU’ was some terrible thing that the ‘Far Right’ was trying to ‘impose’ on the UK.

What do you mean they were telling ALL you people?

There are millions of British people who are not watching the news or the debates who voted to leave knowing it would happen 2 years later after negotiating the terms. Those people just trusted the Government would get them out with some sort of an agreement which would be acceptable to them anyway.
Therefore what YOU personally expected from voting to Leave was not the same as what everybody who voted to leave.
To be the same then the voting slip should clearly write "Leave the EU with or without a deal".
Hence the referendum question was not clear and it just stole the vote of a number of unsuspected citizens, and should be declared invalid.

Can you deny the fact that a certain number of those who voted to leave wouldn't do it if they knew it would be without deal?

Good grief...

The government sent a brochure to every single household in the country (cost £9M if I remember rightly) explaining what Leave meant and recommending Remain...

I've reproduced the last page below.

You Remoaners can't seriously still be claiming that there were millions of of people that didn't watch the news, had no access to the Internet, didn't discuss Brexit down the pub or with their family and who had their letter box nailed shut so they didn't get the government brochure?

Since you like calling your compatriots Remoaners you wouldn't mind calling you a Brexshitter would you?
So Brexshitter point me the line where it says voting to Leave means leaving with no deal.
The average Joe in the street 2 years ago KNEW that voting to Leave meant the Government would enter negotiations with the EU for upto 2 years to agree the terms of leaving. The average Joe also trusted his Government would do a good job.That's the reason millions of British voted to Leave and you hard Brexshitters cheated on them, knowing damn well the referendum was not clear.

As I said earlier, 'no deal' has been invented by Remoaners like yourself after the Referendum. Prior to the Referendum Remoaners were telling us how terrible it would be to leave all the institutions of the EU in the event of a Leave vote.

And as I also said earlier, it isn't 'no deal' in any case, there are already many deals in place to take care of things when we leave - like allowing the planes to fly (another Project Fear storyline) and Irish border arrangements...

An In/Out referendum was the only method by which the European question would ever be decided, because it is indeed a binary choice. Lots of adjacent issues, but the core issue – do we want to be part of this experiment in dissolving the nation state and become part of a Federal European Superstate – is just as binary as the gender spectrum.

PS You can call me what you like - Remoaners have been insulting Brexit voters for over three years - it really is water off a duck's back.

[erolz66]

erol you may not have an issue with that but a lot of his supporters are stupid enough to believe his lies. he is a coward and wil luse everything he can and democrcy gives him a lot of power to abuse his power. how the hell can he ask the queen to shut down parliament for 5 weeks in such a crucial time and then to be the only person that can advice the queen what to do. this liar has no bounds and there is nothong he will not do to keep in power. he has managed to get himself locked in a cage and let jc have the key. let him saty there for a few weeks after all on tuesday the parliament shuts down for 5 weeks so it will make no difference. the election must be after the 17th when it is clear as to what he has to got and not what he can promise. jc has got him by the balls and it's no good letting him go till he loses his balls. at least his voice pitch will go up few notches

All I am doing here is expressing my own views and opinions, basically expressing my identity, which I see as a fundamental human drive / urge. Others may be engaged is trying to convince others but I am not. In my view Johnson still has a major problem going in to an election on the 15th. He either goes in to that election pledging to no deal exit and nothing else in which case the Brexit party will stand down in any seat where their presence may cause a Tory loss, or he goes in to the election promising to get a good deal at the EU summit and will no deal if that fails. In this case the Brexit party will fight him in every seat and this will cost him many seats and I would guess a majority if not an actual defeat.

In a scenario where the election is after the the EU summit and in the case where by it is clear there is no new deal able to be secured by Johnson he will fight the GE on the basis of a no deal exit only and thus with the full support of the Brexit party and will blame the failure to get a better deal on those who cut his legs away. Better to not give him these opportunities I think. Better to call the bluff. Let him, if he gets a majority in a pre 17th election, try and get his better deal whilst still being able to threaten no deal exit if he does not. I can not say with certainty that such is impossible. Let the people have their say and then let him try.

[erolz66]

An In/Out referendum was the only method by which the European question would ever be decided, because it is indeed a binary choice. Lots of adjacent issues, but the core issue – do we want to be part of this experiment in dissolving the nation state and become part of a Federal European Superstate – is just as binary as the gender spectrum.

I have come to see that it is 'process' of trying to force a binary status on something that is not, due to the fundamental mechanics of how the universe works, binary that is actually the source of pretty much all division , polarisation and tribal conflict between groups of shared interest. By saying the decision is a binary one, when the world just does not operate that way, you in effect deny me any ability to express my true opinion / identity. Denying people an opportunity to express their own individuality is the source of conflict. This is a s true with gender issues as anything else. Whilst with gender it may well be that the vast majority of individuals sit at either of the two ends of the spectrum, to say that only two such binary positions exist at all, as if that is the way the universe works, is where gender issues and conflict over them come from. Once you accept the reality that the universe does allow for people to have genders that are not exclusively male or female and nothing else most of the issues around gender identity disappear. Keep trying to impose on the universe what you want it to be like, rather than accept the reality as it is, and you will continue to be in conflict that is just not necessary. Imo.

[Pyrpolizer]

As I said earlier, 'no deal' has been invented by Remoaners like yourself after the Referendum. Prior to the Referendum Remoaners were telling us how terrible it would be to leave all the institutions of the EU in the event of a Leave vote.

And as I also said earlier, it isn't 'no deal' in any case, there are already many deals in place to take care of things when we leave - like allowing the planes to fly (another Project Fear storyline) and Irish border arrangements...

An In/Out referendum was the only method by which the European question would ever be decided, because it is indeed a binary choice. Lots of adjacent issues, but the core issue – do we want to be part of this experiment in dissolving the nation state and become part of a Federal European Superstate – is just as binary as the gender spectrum.

PS You can call me what you like - Remoaners have been insulting Brexit voters for over three years - it really is water off a duck's back.

Still you haven't pointed me the line I asked for.
Thank God I am not British to be called Remoaner or Brexshitter, I am actually a Cypriot who would be delighted if Britain leaves the EU.
Regardless I support the position it's not the right thing for Britain to do...

Back to the issue: Imo both sides took advantage of the vagueness of the referendum. I don't agree it's a binary issue.
Staying in the EU is a singular choice however leaving the EU has multiple options.
Imo both sides knew this weakness and let it go on purpose. The Remainers to eventually claim that "in no way the people who voted to leave, voted to leave with no deal"- I heard someone from the British Parliament saying that. And the hard Brexiters on the other hand to claim that the people who voted to leave meant it to be with or without deal and wouldn't mind if it was without deal.
The truth is there's no way for anyone to find out.
That's why imo the only way out it to have a new updated referendum. with the following questionnaire
a)Remain B) Leave
In this referendum there should be an additional questions with 2 options which regardless of anyone's A or B choice should also answer
If the majority of the vote is in favor of Leaving what would you chose?
1) Leaving with No deal 2) leaving with Deal XYZ as published at dd.mm.yyyy

[Pyrpolizer]

I have come to see that it is 'process' of trying to force a binary status on something that is not, due to the fundamental mechanics of how the universe works, binary that is actually the source of pretty much all division , polarisation and tribal conflict between groups of shared interest. By saying the decision is a binary one, when the world just does not operate that way, you in effect deny me any ability to express my true opinion / identity. Denying people an opportunity to express their own individuality is the source of conflict. This is a s true with gender issues as anything else. Whilst with gender it may well be that the vast majority of individuals sit at either of the two ends of the spectrum, to say that only two such binary positions exist at all, as if that is the way the universe works, is where gender issues and conflict over them come from. Once you accept the reality that the universe does allow for people to have genders that are not exclusively male or female and nothing else most of the issues around gender identity disappear. Keep trying to impose on the universe what you want it to be like, rather than accept the reality as it is, and you will continue to be in conflict that is just not necessary. Imo.

Great post erolz66 you should drop in more often to add some quality to this miserable forum

[miltiades]

This where democracy is fallible !
Voters should by law take an IQ test, if below 1, like the vast majority of leavers, then they should be denied the vote !!
Also those with a ....bucket on their head should be excluded on the grounds of utter stupidity !!!!