Cyprus-Forum.com

[Maximus]

But for me the thing that sparked of this 'dialectic' process and discussion was the question 'who are the true democrats' within the context of the positions taken in the brexit debate. .

The majority voted to leave the EU,

That is the result.

[Kikapu]

And that is the whole point, HR, that after the referendum had been voted on 3 years ago, we haven't left yet, so obviously, it was never a simple leave or stay (YES or NO) referendum as it has been proven to be, and when such problems are there for Brexit not being implemented, there are good reasons as to why it hasn't been.

Yes, the political elite don't want to leave and have refused to implement the will of the people...

When the will of the people is not implemented after an election or a referendum, in this case 17m of them, one would expect them to be on the streets demonstrating and rioting, especially when there isn't any resolution 3 years on. Is it perhaps the majority of the leavers now themselves are no longer convinced that leaving the EU is a wise choice and are in "complicit" with the remainers to prevent Brexit from ever coming to fruition?

No.

Not according to the polls anyway, not according to the results of the European Elections either...

Nice try tho...

Then I don't know why the leavers do not take it to the streets if the polls are in their favour, to demand that Brexit is implemented?

[miltiades]

Plonker, did you say the will of the people?
Perhaps the Scots and the Irish as well as the 16 million plus are fucking animals !!
You are a first class ill educated fucking Plonker. Checked your pound yet ??

No I didn't say that...

You've started on the Keo early today haven't you...?

Yes you did, you said the will of the people.
By the way Im not a beer drinker, on the rare occasion that I have in I do not d4ink KEO since finding out that it is wholly owned by the church of Cyprus !!

[Robin Hood]

Erolz66:

Yes it really is very very simple. The people should NEVER have anything imposed on them, by their own democratic system, that a majority of them do not want. If there is even marginal doubt on what it really is that the people do or do not want in majority it should be tested and not assumed.

I honestly can’t see your problem. That is what you got ...... it was voted for, not imposed; the majority wanted to leave; the minority view was therefore just that, a minority view and no longer valid.

If you then want the people to vote their approval of every step of what happens next ....... then you are not being realistic! That is why we have MP’s, civil servants, lawyers and judges ...... we just have to accept that they are up to the job of completing the transition.

........... and ask the question - "How can anyone who is truly a democrat disagree with the statement above" ?

The question you are asking is not binary as it is conditional ! (IF.... do or do not want ?) A binary question was asked .... the people responded with a binary response! I have explained my view already as simply as I can.

[erolz66]

Erolz66:

Yes it really is very very simple. The people should NEVER have anything imposed on them, by their own democratic system, that a majority of them do not want. If there is even marginal doubt on what it really is that the people do or do not want in majority it should be tested and not assumed.

I honestly can’t see your problem. That is what you got ...... it was voted for, not imposed; the majority wanted to leave; the minority view was therefore just that, a minority view and no longer valid.

The reason why you can not see my problem is that you think that I think the contradiction is with the decision 'should we leave the eu'. It is not. the contradiction is with the the decision 'should we leave the EU without a deal'. You are doing this in one form or another with such consistency and regularity, this conflating of two different things, that I have to ask the question in my head are you doing so with intent

If you then want the people to vote their approval of every step of what happens next ....... then you are not being realistic! That is why we have MP’s, civil servants, lawyers and judges ...... we just have to accept that they are up to the job of completing the transition.

I am NOT saying that. My statement does NOT say that. I have no problem with and see no contradiction with the statement of principal with any decision taken that way (MPs taking it). Not with the decision 'should we leave the EU', not with the decision 'should we leave via a no deal exit' or the decision 'should we pay tax and how much'. I am TOTALLY consistent. The ones who are NOT consistent with that (and there is a reason I did not list you before when calling for a response) are those who claim that in order to achieve a no deal exit (that they just happen to want) there is no problem with the idea of shutting down parliament with the specific intent of removing it from having any say or ability to stop that happening knowing it is the majority will of MP's to do so. No problems with democracy and the application of democratic principal as laid out in the statement. No problems at all. THEY are the ones who are inconsistent not me.

I have explained my view already as simply as I can

You have, on things and questions I am NOT asking about. That you seem to me to be doing so and claiming that is the same as you having done so on the thing / questions I AM asking , just leads to me thinking what the fuck is really going on here ?

(any luck with the Bananas yet ?)

[Lordo]

But for me the thing that sparked of this 'dialectic' process and discussion was the question 'who are the true democrats' within the context of the positions taken in the brexit debate. .

The majority voted to leave the EU,

That is the result.

you really are just too siple to understahd. here are the facts.

17 million people voted to leave eu but not specified how. 16 million voted to stay knowing exactly what it meant.
brexiteers constantly quote the 80% ofpeople who voted for tory and labour parties and take that as being for brexit are bullshitters
13 million people voted for tory party in 2017 which wasa reduction of their mps and loss of their majority.
even today we still don't know which brexit we voted for. how the hell does tory party get a mandate to impose a no-deal brexit on us.

if you don't mind signing blanks check, i have friends who fallen on hard times mate do me a favour and send me blank check and don't worry i will let you know later after i have taken the money out howmuch it was.

[erolz66]

There really is a definitive truth out there as to if a majority of people want to leave the EU by the means of a no deal exit or not. This truth exists, regardless of any individual desires or wants. There is a factual reality as to if a majority support this means of leaving or not.

Any true democrat, any one willing to put democratic principle ahead of their own person desire, would want and need to know what this 'truth is', regardless of what they personaly want.

To date, and I mean for 500 odd plus years, we have used two system for working out what this 'truth' is. Not perfect systems, there are no such systems, but the best we have found so far, for working out what it is the people want. Not what CG or anyone else tells me is what the people want but what they REALLY want. We have used one of those means 'vote MP- MP vote to decide' for 99.99999% of every decision we have collectively made for the last 500 odd years. The other we have used for 0.0000001% of decisions we make communally. I as a democrat do not care WHICH of those means is used. I do not even mind if when the 99% way is used and someone does not get the answer they want they demand the other is used. I do care if neither is to be used to make that decision and then I am told by those who advocate neither is used, which just happens to give them what they personally want, they are the true democrats and I am not.

Can I make MY position any clearer than that ?

[Lordo]

There really is a definitive truth out there as to if a majority of people want to leave the EU by the means of a no deal exit or not. This truth exists, regardless of any individual desires or wants. There is a factual reality as to if a majority support this means of leaving or not.

Any true democrat, any one willing to put democratic principle ahead of their own person desire, would want and need to know what this 'truth is', regardless of what they personaly want.

To date, and I mean for 500 odd plus years, we have used two system for working out what this 'truth' is. Not perfect systems, there are no such systems, but the best we have found so far, for working out what it is the people want. Not what CG or anyone else tells me is what the people want but what they REALLY want. We have used one of those means 'vote MP- MP vote to decide' for 99.99999% of every decision we have collectively made for the last 500 odd years. The other we have used for 0.0000001% of decisions we make communally. I as a democrat do not care WHICH of those means is used. I do not even mind if when the 99% way is used and someone does not get the answer they want they demand the other is used. I do care if neither is to be used to make that decision and then I am told by those who advocate neither is used, which just happens to give them what they personally want, they are the true democrats and I am not.

Can I make MY position any clearer than that ?

in a real democracy such a change cannot be implemented on such wafer thin majority. if cameron wasa true democrat he would have set the referendum to be confirmed once the agreement was reached or not. but than again wearetalking an asshole who described migrants as a swarm. the same language as trump.

our democracy has been broken for some time and boris is just the perfect person to collapse it completely.

[erolz66]

in a real democracy such a change cannot be implemented on such wafer thin majority.

I am not even arguing that, My argument IS much much simpler than that. I have yet to see a leaver here seriously address that argument , rather than seek to avoid having to do so by twisting, jumping through hoop, conflating or any other means, as far as I am concerned. Not just not address it but even concede there IS such an argument at all, even if they do not agree with it.

[cyprusgrump]

And that is the whole point, HR, that after the referendum had been voted on 3 years ago, we haven't left yet, so obviously, it was never a simple leave or stay (YES or NO) referendum as it has been proven to be, and when such problems are there for Brexit not being implemented, there are good reasons as to why it hasn't been.

Yes, the political elite don't want to leave and have refused to implement the will of the people...

When the will of the people is not implemented after an election or a referendum, in this case 17m of them, one would expect them to be on the streets demonstrating and rioting, especially when there isn't any resolution 3 years on. Is it perhaps the majority of the leavers now themselves are no longer convinced that leaving the EU is a wise choice and are in "complicit" with the remainers to prevent Brexit from ever coming to fruition?

No.

Not according to the polls anyway, not according to the results of the European Elections either...

Nice try tho...

Then I don't know why the leavers do not take it to the streets if the polls are in their favour, to demand that Brexit is implemented?

No need.

As I said, they've made their opinion absolutely clear in the opinion polls and European Elections...