Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

How is that pound in your pocket mate?
Look, why don't you convert now , go for Turkish lira, or even ...Afghani , looks a good bet for Plonkers!!
Madam Sterling is bleeding and the Plonkers just want her total annihilation!!
Strange how the Little Englanders mentality blinds those afflicted to realities.

[cyprusgrump]

How is that pound in your pocket mate?
Look, why don't you convert now , go for Turkish lira, or even ...Afghani , looks a good bet for Plonkers!!
Madam Sterling is bleeding and the Plonkers just want her total annihilation!!
Strange how the Little Englanders mentality blinds those afflicted to realities.

If you've been clever enough to move your money out of Sterling why do you keep banging on about the exchange rate...?

[Robin Hood]

I just had to add this to the brew .........

This is what happens when you panic the herd. People react out of fear ........

500 Britons become Cypriots in the shadow of a hard Brexit

More and more Britons who live in Cyprus (most of them pensioners) are
looking to obtain a Cypriot passport as a result of Brexit.

According to a report from a Greek newspaper “NEA” about 500 Britons have
obtained a Cypriot passport over the last months.

After Boris Johnson became Prime Minister applicants are growing rapidly,
and the Cypriot government is trying to find ways to grant Cypriot citizenship
to Britons without losing British citizenship.

https://in-cyprus.com/500-british-become-cypriots-in-the-shadow-of-a-severe-brexit/

I believe that what they meant was losing THE BENEFITS of being a British Citizen. If there happens to be any unrest in Cyprus and I need the protection of the British Embassy, I get it because I am still a citizen of the UK although a resident of Cyprus. Once you hold the dual citizenship of the country you live in, in this case Cyprus ..... that benefit is no longer applicable. The UK Government cannot offer assistance in your country of chosen citizenship if you hold dual nationality.

On another forum one well informed mocking member said: “ Quote: ".....to grant Cypriot citizenship to Britons without losing British citizenship". Has something changed in British or Cypriot citizenship law or doesn't the reporter know the subject well enough to be able to report accurately upon it?”

The reporter obviously knows the citizenship law better than he does?

[Londonrake]

Good to see you’re still in there RH.

[erolz66]

This guy is saying more-or-less what I have been trying to get across to you!

What you have put across to me that there is no material difference between exiting the EU via a deal that has some kind of agreed transition period (the deal) and a deal that does not ( your horribly misnamed 'wto dea'l)

What he says makes sense and with his qualifications and experience he should have a better idea of trade practices than you or I.

What he says makes sense. I do not disagree that it makes sense. I do not disagree or challenge anything he says. But NONE of that is relevant to the question 'is a "wto deal" based exit fundamentally different from other forms of exit or is just an equivalent alternative to them'. You just can not answer that question, either way by talking about what kind of trade deal we may or may not end up with. That is entirely irrelevant to 'asking that question'. That, every time I try and talk about the real differences between a wto exit and others, you start banging on about stuff that has no relevance to THAT question at all just leads me to wonder 'what the fuck is really going on here (with you)'.

Once more

By being a member of the EU the UK is party to a whole raft of international trade agreements that define the terms on which it trades with others is conducted. With other EU member states and with any other country the EU has a trade deal with. That is just a fact but not one that is in any way relevant to 'answering the question'

Also and in addition to the above, that is true and IS irrelevant to answering the question.

By being a member of the EU the UK is party to a whole raft of international agreements that are NOT ABOUT TRADE but about other things. Agreements not just with the other EU states but also with all those countries that the EU has such agreements with too. This is just a fact. Do you accept this as just a fact ? Yes or no ? If you do not accept this as a fact, then let's just end this now.

On the assumption that you do accept the above fact as a fact lets continue.

With these non trade agreements there IS a material difference based on how we chose to leave.

Still with me ? Tempted to say 'but people do not care about these issues only the trade ones' ? I am talking about underlying reality here. You can not change underlying reality by being 'interested' on 'not interested'. It is just underlying reality regardless. What people are or are not interested is irrelevant to the point I am making.

So to investigate a bit further let's look at an example of such a non trade international agreement,

Open sky agreements are one such example. There are many more such but this is one of them. In order for one countries planes to be able to fly in another's airspace and visa versa there has to be a signed legal agreement between those two parties. This legal reality also defines the real world practical reality too. Without such an agreement in place, you can not fly your planes in their airspace and their planes in yours. It does not matter if both parties are happy for that to happen anyway without a legal agreement in place. It is nothing to do with transponders or such things. If there is no legal agreement in place then no planes can fly. No agreement - no flights. Full stop. No amount of will, that does not involve a signed agreement can change this.

So on exit, any exit at all, once the EU opens skys agreements no longer applies to the UK it has to be replaced. Fact. It has to be replaced and it will be replaced. Fact. That is not replacing one expired agreement with one new one. It is replacing one expired agreement with one new one to cover the EU and 100 odd other individual and separate bi lateral agreements to cover all the countries we had such agreements with via the EU and now no longer do. This does not just have to be done with open sky agreements but with all the other, non trade agreements, as well. There are a lot of these. Again not on a one to one ratio but on a one to 100 or more ratio. That is a lot of agreements.

Leave one way and we have to replace all these agreements at the same time. 300, 500 maybe even 1000 bi lateral agreements. Any gap between us leaving and signing the new agreement, then whatever that agreement allows, can not happen and will not happen until the new agreement is signed.

Leave another way and they all still need to be replaced but we have the time to do this in a manged way. Any gap between when we leave and before we sign the new agreement (till the end of transition period) results in things staying the same as they were before we left until we do sign the new agreement.

That is the very real material difference between a wto exit and other forms of exit. This is why you can not say a wto exit is an equivalent form of exit to one that has an agreed transition period as part of it. It is not equivalent because it does not have such a transition period. All it has is a 'back stop' position that covers trade in goods and defines what happens re such trade (but nothing else) from the point we leave till when we agree some other trade agreement with the relevant party. Even then what it says will happen in this 'middle period' just for trade in goods, is not that 'things will stay as they are'. It just says what the maximum tariffs on different classes of goods can be. WTO rules are not even a 'trade deal' anyway. They are an international agreement that govern the limits of what parties can do (with regards to trade in goods) when there is no trade deal between those parties. But that is semantics and not relevant anyway

Now if you say to me, yeah yeah I get it, I just do not think this difference,that results from how we chose to leave, will matter in the end. If you say that you understand / accept this difference exists but is, in your opinion, not a problem and 'Our boys can handle it. Signing 300, 500 ore even more bilateral international agreements all on the same day, not a problem, have some faith'. Say 'yeah they can sign all these agreements all on the same day, even though they will also be trying to negotiate trade deals with 100 + countries from the same day, handle the deployment of 600 new border security staff from the same day, and deal with 100 other consequences of leaving all on the same day. If you said this then we could at least 'move on'.

But you do not say this. You keep saying that a wto deal (as you totally incorrectly label it) based exit does NOT have such differences to other forms of exiting. These differences do not exist at all, they are made up stories by remoners. You are wrong. You may be wrong because you are consciously lying, unconsciously lying to yourself or because you just do not have the intellectual capability to understand (something I find impossible to believe) but what ever the reason you are still just wrong. The differences are real. They exist. They exist regardless of if you or I want them to exists.

Will you ever accept this ? That wto exit is NOT and equivalent form of exit to others ? Does actual reality matter to you at all ? Will you keep just denying reality, keep just making up claims that are not real to suit all while moaning at the remainers who do this whilst also accusing all those leavers who do not do this , of doing it as well ?

[miltiades]

How is that pound in your pocket mate?
Look, why don't you convert now , go for Turkish lira, or even ...Afghani , looks a good bet for Plonkers!!
Madam Sterling is bleeding and the Plonkers just want her total annihilation!!
Strange how the Little Englanders mentality blinds those afflicted to realities.

If you've been clever enough to move your money out of Sterling why do you keep banging on about the exchange rate...?

Because I love my adopted country. I support Sterling, nothing would please me more than to see the pound rise and rise.
I still have my state and private pension from the UK. My son and loads of relatives are in rhe UK, I want them to prosper inside the EU not out of it. I feel that the day w3 come out , if and when, will be the darkest day in the history of the UK. It might also lead to a breakdown of the UK, a nation that I tookto my heart from the moment I arrived there almost 60 years ago.

[Robin Hood]

Good to see you’re still in there RH.

I thought you would pick up on that!

[erolz66]

well what do you know. it seems it is not just our membership of the eu that is stake now, our 400 year old democracy that is also at stake. government has declared that they may not allow a no-confidence motion and even if it is forced on the government they may ignore it. apparently they don't have to adhere to the whim of parliament.

It may true , or possibly true in a strict legal sense but I do not think that matters, Just as it does not matter that referendum, as defined in law by the bill passed to allow it, says explicitly in that law, that it is 'advisory and non binding'.

[erolz66]

The EU had nothing to do with the Good Friday agreement.

Presumably you do not claim the the RoI (an EU member state) had nothing to do with it ?

[cyprusgrump]

How is that pound in your pocket mate?
Look, why don't you convert now , go for Turkish lira, or even ...Afghani , looks a good bet for Plonkers!!
Madam Sterling is bleeding and the Plonkers just want her total annihilation!!
Strange how the Little Englanders mentality blinds those afflicted to realities.

If you've been clever enough to move your money out of Sterling why do you keep banging on about the exchange rate...?

Because I love my adopted country. I support Sterling, nothing would please me more than to see the pound rise and rise.
I still have my state and private pension from the UK. My son and loads of relatives are in rhe UK, I want them to prosper inside the EU not out of it. I feel that the day w3 come out , if and when, will be the darkest day in the history of the UK. It might also lead to a breakdown of the UK, a nation that I tookto my heart from the moment I arrived there almost 60 years ago.

I appreciate your sensible and reasoned comment for once!

Although I suspect those that were bombed out or lost their lives at home and abroad fighting for their country may think leaving the EU is not the darkest day in the history of the UK...

We obviously have to agree to differ on the prospects of the UK outside of the EU... I guess we'll just have to wait and see eh...?