Cyprus-Forum.com

[cyprusgrump]

in a real democracy such a change cannot be implemented on such wafer thin majority.

Of course it can...

Whole governments can change on very slim swings from one side to the other, governments that have very different views to each other on how things should be run.

A very small number of votes could bring in a Labour government which will dramatically change things in the UK.

I'm sure if a small number of votes had won it for Remain you wouldn't be complaining!

[erolz66]

There really is a definitive truth out there as to if a majority of people want to leave the EU by the means of a no deal exit or not. This truth exists, regardless of any individual desires or wants. There is a factual reality as to if a majority support this means of leaving or not.

Any true democrat, any one willing to put democratic principle ahead of their own person desire, would want and need to know what this 'truth is', regardless of what they personaly want.

To date, and I mean for 500 odd plus years, we have used two system for working out what this 'truth' is. Not perfect systems, there are no such systems, but the best we have found so far, for working out what it is the people want. Not what CG or anyone else tells me is what the people want but what they REALLY want. We have used one of those means 'vote MP- MP vote to decide' for 99.99999% of every decision we have collectively made for the last 500 odd years. The other we have used for 0.0000001% of decisions we make communally. I as a democrat do not care WHICH of those means is used. I do not even mind if when the 99% way is used and someone does not get the answer they want they demand the other is used. I do care if neither is to be used to make that decision and then I am told by those who advocate neither is used, which just happens to give them what they personally want, they are the true democrats and I am not.

[erolz66]

The HONEST version of CG position

The referendum result was so important, the need to have its result implemented, despite all the difficulties so far in efforts to do so, is so important, the dangers in not having it implemented so large, that I say we should not and can not and indeed must not worry about using the normal democratic means to decide how we implement it, as we have used for making every decision for the last 500 years up to and including the referendum itself, and we should if necessary bypass such means entirely, to ensure we do leave.

The dishonest versions of CG position - the one necessary to believe in order to also believe 'he is the democrat and leavers are the anti democrat'

The people have voted. leaving on a no deal basis is democratic. Suspending parliaments ability to stop a no deal exit is democratic. There is no need to consider in any way or at all if the majority of the people really want to leave this way or not because they have already been asked. He and leavers in general are the democrats and those who voted remain are the anti democrats.

[Robin Hood]

The HONEST version of CG position

The referendum result was so important, the need to have its result implemented, despite all the difficulties so far in efforts to do so, is so important, the dangers in not having it implemented so large, that I say we should not and can not and indeed must not worry about using the normal democratic means to decide how we implement it, as we have used for making every decision for the last 500 years up to and including the referendum itself, and we should if necessary bypass such means entirely, to ensure we do leave.

The dishonest versions of CG position - the one necessary to believe in order to also believe 'he is the democrat and leavers are the anti democrat'

The people have voted. leaving on a no deal basis is democratic. Suspending parliaments ability to stop a no deal exit is democratic. There is no need to consider in any way or at all if the majority of the people really want to leave this way or not because they have already been asked. He and leavers in general are the democrats and those who voted remain are the anti democrats.

I am sorry but you have me completely and utterly confused!

[Robin Hood]

Erolz66:
.......... 'should we leave the EU without a deal ?' ......... that was never the question! Are you suggesting that should now be voted on?

The vote was we will leave and the only deal at the time was leaving on WTO rules. If we had professionals who knew what they were doing, making an attempt to revise those conditions to something more favourable to both sides, then so much the better. But we didn’t .... we had an Oxford educated vicar’s daughter with zero experience in international trade who was ‘weak-and-wobbly’ not ‘strong-and-stable’ as she claimed to be and she screwed up. She couldn’t even make a speech without reading it word for word with drama built in ..... but very little if any, substance to what she was saying. Even the EU negotiators didn’t know what the hell she was asking for!

Will BJ be any better? I somehow doubt it for the same reason he is not a seasoned negotiator with international trade experience and he will get his advice from the same people the last PM did. He more than likely went to Eton with many of them.

I am giving it to you as I see it I am not trying to trick anybody. To me it is obvious! It is you that has introduced something that was NEVER on offer!

The ones who are NOT consistent with that are those who claim that in order to achieve a no deal exit (that they just happen to want) there is no problem with the idea of shutting down parliament with the specific intent of removing it from having any say or ability to stop that happening knowing it is the majority will of MP's to do so.

As I have said, I would judge that as an attempt to pervert the will of the people. I don’t know how to make this clearer; we have a deal ..... WTO Rules ..... that was on the table from day one. This idea of NO DEAL was a scare mongering phrase, a tactic to make it seem like a catastrophe unless Teresa May got her deal through. It didn’t work .... her deal got slung out three times. But nothing changed from the original DEAL = WTO Rules!!! There never was a no deal scenario that is in effect propaganda! Why do people find that so difficult to understand?

(any luck with the Bananas yet ?)

No but the information I have seen is all regarding production and importing from outside the EU ...... and it appears there is no restriction that I can find.

Update: 15:40
Bananas! Having read this I can only say it is another good reason for leaving the EU and their army of bureaucratic form fillers behind. Just how much does it cost to implement this sort of crap and how many jobs for the boys does it create?

BTW: There is a minimum length requirement of 14cm, that Cyprus bananas cannot comply with ...... so they bend the rules! Isn’t that what Cyprus always does?

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32011R1333

[erolz66]

.......... 'should we leave the EU without a deal ?' ......... that was never the question! Are you suggesting that should now be voted on?

I am saying that decision needs to be made, has to be made and will be made, one way or another. I think, as a democrat, it should be made via the same ways and means we have made every other decision for the last 500 years (MPs decide OR referendum). What do you say ?

Is that REALLY so hard to understand ?

[erolz66]

(any luck with the Bananas yet ?)

No but the information I have seen is all regarding production and importing from outside the EU ...... and it appears there is no restriction that I can find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

The alleged ban on curved bananas is a long-standing, famous, and stereotypical claim[17][18][19][20] that is used in headlines to typify the Euromyth.[21][22] Amongst other issues of acceptable quality and standards, the regulation does actually specify minimum dimensions. It also states that bananas shall be free from deformation or abnormal curvature.[23] However, the provisions relating to shape apply fully only to bananas sold as Extra class; slight defects of shape (but not size) are permitted in Class I and Class II bananas

The classifications are all about if a Banana can be sold in the EU as a 'grade 1' banana or not. Failing to meet the requirements to be sold as a grade 1 (or any other grade) banana does not mean the banana can not be sold at all in the EU. You believed that Cyprus bananas could not be sold in the EU at all, because of EU regulation. You were wrong. Have you yet thought about how many other things you believe to be true about the EU are also wrong ? Things also subject to an actual campaign of disinformation against the EU from some quarters, for decades now ? Is there no need to worry about being influenced by such disinformation if the thing it is trying to influence you to believe is something you want to believe anyway regardless of what reality is ?

[erolz66]

As I have said, I would judge that as an attempt to pervert the will of the people. I don’t know how to make this clearer; we have a deal ..... WTO Rules ..... that was on the table from day one. This idea of NO DEAL was a scare mongering phrase, a tactic to make it seem like a catastrophe unless Teresa May got her deal through.

So when Parliament once again democratically blocks such a decision you will have no issue with that in terms of how that decisions should be made ?

[Robin Hood]

As I have said, I would judge that as an attempt to pervert the will of the people. I don’t know how to make this clearer; we have a deal ..... WTO Rules ..... that was on the table from day one. This idea of NO DEAL was a scare mongering phrase, a tactic to make it seem like a catastrophe unless Teresa May got her deal through.

So when Parliament once again democratically blocks such a decision you will have no issue with that in terms of how that decisions should be made ?

No body is likely to seek my opinion!

NOW ..... if you want to talk about the advantages of adopting Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) and the advantages it offers once we are out of the EU then I can help!

BTW: If you are reading this LR .... our mutual friend was not aware that Fractional Reserve Banking was actually now considered by the BoE not to be the case and Currency Creation was in fact the proven method.

[Londonrake]

BTW: If you are reading this LR .... our mutual friend was not aware that Fractional Reserve Banking was actually now considered by the BoE not to be the case and Currency Creation was in fact the proven method.

That’s very unfair RH. As you’re well aware I’ve always said that if they want the Greek debt conundrum, the Italian economy, troubles at the ECB, BoE, IMF, WB sorted out, plus of course guidance on the likes of “Peoples’ QE” then they should stop all this messing about and get you in there.

Just as long as they don’t let you near any bananas.