Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

If BREXIT does not occur, then we have basically made it as we go along and we have crapped all over democracy and due process.

People will become angry and disillusioned and they will rebel by voting for BREXIT parties like UKIP. Even some remainers will vote for the BREXIT parties because they are sick of what is probably the biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history.

If a no deal Brexit does get implemented by Jonhson shutting down Parliament in order to deny Parliament their ability to have a fair democratic say on this means of exit, overturning 500 years of democratic normality in the UK, then I can tell you that the levels of anger, righteous anger, will rise to levels far beyond anything seen to date. This will be even more true IF such an exit causes the sort of damage to the UK and peoples lives that I 'speculate' that it would.

I differentiate here between the remainers and remoaners as there is a big difference.

The very term 'remoner' is based on a premise that when someone is in a minority of opinion on a subject, there is a vote on that subject that goes against their view, they then should and must just 'shut up' on that subject. This is not a notion that respects democracy, it is one that either fundamentally mis understands what democracy is and requires or is just contemptuous of democracy when that does not suit what the person wants.

Boris can simply ignore parliament and do whatever he likes citing the people's referendum.

Whether he has the balls to do that is another matter but if he proves to be as gutless as his predecessor then his future as PM is in jeopardy and not just that but the future of the Tories is also dire but there is a bigger issue at stake than the future of a party which will be replaced by UKIP, and that is the entire institution of Democracy is being dealt a devastating blow and that is something that should worry every Brit.

This is why Tory MPs who even voted to remain and want to stay in the EU are now going along with Hard BREXIT. They see no other choice and they are correct.

I don't have the time to discuss terms and terminology I'm sorry.

[erolz66]

Boris can simply ignore parliament and do whatever he likes citing the people's referendum.

He can try and do that and he may succeed. What I am saying is that if he does do that and succeed, then that will be, in fact, the " biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history" and anger levels will rise accordingly to a level we have never seen before.

[Paphitis]

Boris can simply ignore parliament and do whatever he likes citing the people's referendum.

He can try and do that and he may succeed. What I am saying is that if he does do that and succeed, then that will be, in fact, the " biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history" and anger levels will rise accordingly to a level we have never seen before.

Yes he has many options and finally the HARD BREXIT option is on the table. It literally has to be for Britain's sake. By ruling it out Britain is basically bending over and taking it like a bitch and that was never going to pay off no matter what.

No it wouldn't be a derailment of democracy at all. The people had their vote and decided, and there is a finality in that. parliament does not have the right to derail, postpone or hinder the will of the people.

And terribly sorry but I also refuse to get dragged into this merry go round once again.

So, have your final say Erolz. I will go along with it and even say you are correct but I said I will be back when BREXIT does occur to partake.

BREXIT will be a massive victory to Britain, and a massive victory to the people and a major 'up yours' to the EU. They deserve it.

[Londonrake]

Boris can simply ignore parliament and do whatever he likes citing the people's referendum.

He can try and do that and he may succeed. What I am saying is that if he does do that and succeed, then that will be, in fact, the " biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history" and anger levels will rise accordingly to a level we have never seen before.

Not really.

As a point of interest. One of the highest profile critics of this proroguing malarkey so far has been John Major. “Judicial review”? In fact, back in the 90s, as PM he prorogued parliament for the longest period since 1918. He did it in order to prevent the House debating an official report into his government’s “Cash for questions” scandal, immediately prior to a General Election.

Marks out of 10 for hypocrisy?

[erolz66]

Boris can simply ignore parliament and do whatever he likes citing the people's referendum.

He can try and do that and he may succeed. What I am saying is that if he does do that and succeed, then that will be, in fact, the " biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history" and anger levels will rise accordingly to a level we have never seen before.

Not really.

As a point of interest. One of the highest profile critics of this proroguing malarkey so far has been John Major. “Judicial review”? In fact, back in the 90s, as PM he prorogued parliament for the longest period since 1918. He did it in order to prevent the House debating an official report into his government’s “Cash for questions” scandal, immediately prior to a General Election.

Marks out of 10 for hypocrisy?

There is a difference in degree in shutting down Parliament at a given point in time in order to have a GE before a given report that might be damaging to the government election prospects comes out and shutting it down in order to block Parliaments from being able to have it's democratic say on the biggest, essentially irreversible, decision made in decades. The degree is not helped by the fact that his government is a minority one, only in power in the first place because it bought 10 votes from the DUP with £2 billion tax payers money and is on the verg of being in a minority even with those bought votes.

Is what Major did morally 'right'. No it is not. Is he a hypocrite, quite possibly. Does what he did represent the 'biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history' no it does not.

Would a minority government forcing through a no deal exit by the means of shutting down Parliament entirely and only because it is known that such an exit is NOT the majority will of MPs be ' the biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history' ? Dam right it would be.

[erolz66]

No it wouldn't be a derailment of democracy at all. The people had their vote and decided, and there is a finality in that. parliament does not have the right to derail, postpone or hinder the will of the people.

Over and over and over.

The people voted to leave the EU. They did not vote to leave the EU via a no deal exit. To claim they did so is to seek to pervert a legitimate mandate and apply it to something that there is not a mandate for but that you happen to like. This IS a perversion of democracy at a fundamental level.

The majority will of Parliament, by definition, by constitutional precedent, by anything, IS the majority will of the people. That is how the UK system has worked for 500 years. The ONLY thing that can 'turmp' this valid , legal and democratic expression of the will of the people is a referendum. In a scenario where Parliament has already expressed a majority will to NOT exit without a deal, there is one way and one way only to get over ride that democratic will of Parliament, that is itself democratically valid and that is to ask the people directly. The people have NEVER been asked 'do you support implementing the will of the people as expressed in the 2016 referendum via a no deal exit from the EU'. Parliament as their legal democratic representatives HAVE been asked this and they have said 'NO'.

[Paphitis]

No it wouldn't be a derailment of democracy at all. The people had their vote and decided, and there is a finality in that. parliament does not have the right to derail, postpone or hinder the will of the people.

Over and over and over.

The people voted to leave the EU. They did not vote to leave the EU via a no deal exit. To claim they did so is to seek to pervert a legitimate mandate and apply it to something that there is not a mandate for but that you happen to like. This IS a perversion of democracy at a fundamental level.

The majority will of Parliament, by definition, by constitutional precedent, by anything, IS the majority will of the people. That is how the UK system has worked for 500 years. The ONLY thing that can 'turmp' this valid , legal and democratic expression of the will of the people is a referendum. In a scenario where Parliament has already expressed a majority will to NOT exit without a deal, there is one way and one way only to get over ride that democratic will of Parliament, that is itself democratically valid and that is to ask the people directly. The people have NEVER been asked 'do you support implementing the will of the people as expressed in the 2016 referendum via a no deal exit from the EU'. Parliament as their legal democratic representatives HAVE been asked this and they have said 'NO'.

Yes they did. They voted to leave and that is going to happen.

It’s going to happen without the blackmail of the EU

[Londonrake]

There is a difference in degree in shutting down Parliament at a given point in time in order to have a GE before a given report that might be damaging to the government election prospects comes out and shutting it down in order to block Parliaments from being able to have it's democratic say on the biggest, essentially irreversible, decision made in decades. The degree is not helped by the fact that his government is a minority one, only in power in the first place because it bought 10 votes from the DUP with £2 billion tax payers money and is on the verg of being in a minority even with those bought votes.

Is what Major did morally 'right'. No it is not. Is he a hypocrite, quite possibly. Does what he did represent the 'biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history' no it does not.

Would a minority government forcing through a no deal exit by the means of shutting down Parliament entirely and only because it is known that such an exit is NOT the majority will of MPs be ' the biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history' ? Dam right it would be.

Again, we disagree on fundamentals. As of course we always will with this subject.

The "biggest derailment of British Democracy" though is when a political party campaigns on the basis of a "peoples' vote" regarding EU membership. Is elected with a small majority (it's considered that the referendum promise carried the day). Then, as HMG, puts the vote on holding such a referendum to Parliament, which is carried by 544 to 53 in favour. There's a 6 month campaign, where both sides put their case, during which we were promised by a whole array of cross spectrum politicians, including the PM, it would be a "once in a lifetime" vote with the result being honoured.

The vote to invoke Article 50 was carried by 413 to 202. That, with all MPs understanding it would precipitate a 2 year countdown to EU withdrawal. Or, is it a case of what we hear over and over from Remainers "They didn't know what they were voting for"

The 2 major parties campaigned in the 2017 election with manifesto commitments to honour the 2016 referendum result. In the highest turnout since 1997 together they won 579 seats. The LibDems, who campaigned on a Remain ticket, were decimated.

Theresa May assured us 108 times that we would leave the EU on 29/3/2019, yet here we are, 38 months after the referendum, still listening to the zillionth argument for either revoking Article 50 or holding a second referendum. Absolutely anything to avoid what was solemnly promised.

I appreciate all of this is banging head against wall stuff but I'm afraid that when parliament decided - very, very rarely - to relinquish its responsibility and throw the question of EU membership open to the entire UK electorate in a referendum, then has subsequently conspired, prevaricated, plotted and deviously delayed implementing the largest mandate in the UK's history - that in fact is the actual " biggest derailment of British Democracy".

You keep making the case for "democracy". Sorry but in reality it's an obfuscating sham. As with most Remainers, and like the deal/no deal excuse, it's a smoke screen behind which is a fervent desire to remain in the EU.

Again (and again, and again......) do you really think all those millions of, now pretty (and entirely rightfully) pissed off voters are going to meekly accept that?

Sigh!

[cyprusgrump]

Would a minority government forcing through a no deal exit by the means of shutting down Parliament entirely and only because it is known that such an exit is NOT the majority will of MPs be ' the biggest derailment of British Democracy in their entire history' ? Dam right it would be.

You keep coming out with this same old crap over and over...

If parliament is shutdown then what...?

No deal Brexit happens.

And why is that...?

Because a no deal (or WTO terms) Brexit is the default that has been agreed by parliament as the default.

[erolz66]

Because a no deal (or WTO terms) Brexit is the default that has been agreed by parliament as the default.

Over and over.

Agreed by them because they understood that they could if wanted and via democratic means change what the default position is up to and until the 'default date'.

That these discussions are circular is the sole responsibility of those when faced with a counter argument they can not or do not want to address , go back to just repeating their first argument, unchanged, rather than address the counter argument. In just about every case I have seen here - that means YOU CG.