Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Let me give another “bottom line” scenario.

One of the married couples wants a divorce and asks for one, and the idea is approved by the parties. Let’s call it, UK/EU and the referendum.

So far so good if the couple do not have any kids together for custody purposes. They do not own any property to share. They don’t own a business together to resolve who owns what. There is no money in the bank to make a split on certain %. There is to be no alimony to be paid and so on.

HOWEVER, should the couple have some or all of the above issues in the last 40 years of marriage, it is not easy just to say, “well, I want a divorce and that is the end of it and I don’t care about the other details that has tied the couple together”. The divorce my be granted eventually because the other party, the EU, is not contesting to the divorce, but at the same time, the party who does want divorce, the UK, has to resolve all her legal obligations, in order to be granted to be divorced.

Now, just because the couple no longer want to sleep together in the same bed, it does not mean that they are divorced, and that’s where we are, we the UK citizens are the “issues” between the UK/EU marriage, as some issues being contested in the divorce proceedings. The party who wants the divorce, the UK, has not satisfied her “issues” to be granted to have the divorce yet, and perhaps never will 100%. A divorce decision may be made by the UK citizens , but finalizing it is an another matter. At the moment, the “issues”, the UK citizens are not all satisfied with the divorce proceedings, end of!

Top marks for obfuscation but I don't think you have moved the discussion on at all...

May well be, but we are exactly where we are today, obfuscation or not.

Who says Art does not imitate Life or Life does not imitate Art?

[cyprusgrump]

Who should decide if a given form of exit is or is not really exiting ? You (extreme leavers) or the people ?

The people decided in 2016...

They were given a binary choice, Leave or Remain and they chose Leave.

Remaining in the EU three years after the people voted to Leave it is not honouring the result of the referendum.


There is nothing extreme about my position. The democratically elected government offered a referendum, we voted Leave. It is not unreasonable or extreme to expect the government to respect our wishes as they promised to do.

[erolz66]

There is nothing extreme about my position. The democratically elected government offered a referendum, we voted Leave. It is not unreasonable or extreme to expect the government to respect our wishes as they promised to do.

We voted to leave. Accepted. We should leave. Accepted. So someone has to decide how we leave. Yes ? So who should decide how we leave ? A minority of extreme leavers or the people, either directly or indirectly via their democratically elected representatives ? I say the people should decide how we should leave. What do you say ?

That is the issue here. You as far as I can tell seem to think that extreme leavers should decide how we leave. I think the people should decide. Who is the democrat here ?

[B25]

The referendum questions were poorly constructed IMHO.

I believe that the the interpretation of 'to leave' was just that with no consideration on the type of 'leaving' possible. I doubt people would understand that anyway. Given such a choice each camp just chose what they thought period.

Had the question been phrased differently we would now know exactly what the people wanted. In short it was a fuckup of the referendum question.

Erolz (extreme remainer) you are neither wrong nor right just as CG is. The only thing in his favour is the official result, At least he has a leg to stand on, where as you don't and you are expressing only your opinion. Yes you spoke to some people dis you speak to at least 10m of them to gauge you result, hmm, no, so speaking to half a dozen people has given you your 'facts' about what they want!!!

So, what if I said I spoke to at least 10 remainers, that now wish the voted to leave?? is that a valid 'fact'??

I think this discussion is just 6 of one and half a dozen of the other and has become over complicated due to the initial errors in the referendum question. So I have another question: Did even the UK parliament even understand the significance of any of the forms of leaving when they posed the original question??? Most probably not, so this is why we have a bunch of now, headless chickens (MPs) running around in parliament not knowing which way to turn.

[cyprusgrump]

There is nothing extreme about my position. The democratically elected government offered a referendum, we voted Leave. It is not unreasonable or extreme to expect the government to respect our wishes as they promised to do.

We voted to leave. Accepted. We should leave. Accepted. So someone has to decide how we leave. Yes ? So who should decide how we leave ? A minority of extreme leavers or the people, either directly or indirectly via their democratically elected representatives ? I say the people should decide how we should leave. What do you say ?

That is the issue here. You as far as I can tell seem to think that extreme leavers should decide how we leave. I think the people should decide. Who is the democrat here ?

It is not extreme to want the result of the referendum to be implemented...

Clearly parliament, our elected representatives should be the ones managing our departure.

However, what is clear is that the majority of MPs would prefer to stay in the EU - that is why we haven't left yet...

Thankfully, Boris has made it clear that we will be Leaving with or without a deal. I'm happy either way...

And if he doesn't deliver there will be a GE, we'll elect a parliament that wants to Leave and we will Leave with or without a deal.

[cyprusgrump]

The referendum questions were poorly constructed IMHO.

I believe that the the interpretation of 'to leave' was just that with no consideration on the type of 'leaving' possible. I doubt people would understand that anyway. Given such a choice each camp just chose what they thought period.

Had the question been phrased differently we would now know exactly what the people wanted. In short it was a fuckup of the referendum question.

Erolz (extreme remainer) you are neither wrong nor right just as CG is. The only thing in his favour is the official result, At least he has a leg to stand on, where as you don't and you are expressing only your opinion. Yes you spoke to some people dis you speak to at least 10m of them to gauge you result, hmm, no, so speaking to half a dozen people has given you your 'facts' about what they want!!!

So, what if I said I spoke to at least 10 remainers, that now wish the voted to leave?? is that a valid 'fact'??

I think this discussion is just 6 of one and half a dozen of the other and has become over complicated due to the initial errors in the referendum question. So I have another question: Did even the UK parliament even understand the significance of any of the forms of leaving when they posed the original question??? Most probably not, so this is why we have a bunch of now, headless chickens (MPs) running around in parliament not knowing which way to turn.

I think you make some good points...

And I think the reason for the 'poorly constructed' question was that Cameron and his government didn't think in a million years that we would vote to leave.... Just shows how disconnected politicians are from the people eh...?

[erolz66]

It is not extreme to want the result of the referendum to be implemented...

Absolutely agree with you that this is not extreme. I have never said or suggested (with intent) that this is what I think. So keep tilting at straw men if you like.

Clearly parliament, our elected representatives should be the ones managing our departure.

Yet you think closing Parliament is a valid way forward ? You do not see a contradiction between claiming Parliament should decide how we leave and saying a minority government should close Parliament to stop them being able to decide how we should leave ?

However, what is clear is that the majority of MPs would prefer to stay in the EU - that is why we haven't left yet...

And yet significant numbers (significant meaning enough that the outcome could have been different) of those most vocal leave supporters are also part of the reason we have not left yet. To say we have not left because a majority of MP's prefer to remain is a massive over simplification. The simple truth is that those that have blocked all attempts by the government to implement leaving to date come from both MP's that would prefer to remain AND MP's who want to leave but only in a certain way.

Thankfully, Boris has made it clear that we will be Leaving with or without a deal. I'm happy either way...

No you are not happy either way, if leaving with a deal means leaving with a deal that YOU think is not brexit at all. So you do think that Boris (an extreme leaver) heading a minority government should chose how we leave and Parliament should not be able to stop him.

And if he doesn't deliver there will be a GE, we'll elect a parliament that wants to Leave and we will Leave with or without a deal.

When Parliament stops him from forcing through a no deal exit, that is against the will of Parliament and almost certainly against the will of the people as well, that will almost certainly lead to a general election. The idea that in such a GE the people will return a majority of MP's that are willing to vote for leaving without a deal is an article of faith on your part. I see little evidence that such a result is a foregone conclusion of a GE. In any case I would have supported a GE as a way of trying to break deadlock long before Boris took power. Those who have been doing everything in their power to avoid such a GE are not 'ultra remainers'. It is in fact the 'ultra leavers' that have to date and continue to try and avoid the people having a say via a GE. For good reason because they do not respect the will of the people, they fear it.

[erolz66]

Erolz (extreme remainer) you are neither wrong nor right just as CG is.

I am not an extreme remainer. What I am is an extreme believer in reason and logic and truth. My definition of 'extreme' in terms of remain or leave, is if people are willing to deny, ignore or distort reality (you might call it 'leading people up the garden path') to get what they want, then that in my book is extreme.

If a majority or the peoples representatives (MPs) agreed to leaving without a deal I would accept that. If they agreed to leave with a deal I would accept that. What I do not accept is that a minority of MP's should be able to decide how we leave. If that makes me an extreme remainer in your book , then so be it.

[Londonrake]

Clearly parliament, our elected representatives should be the ones managing our departure.

However, what is clear is that the majority of MPs would prefer to stay in the EU - that is why we haven't left yet...

Thankfully, Boris has made it clear that we will be Leaving with or without a deal. I'm happy either way...

And if he doesn't deliver there will be a GE, we'll elect a parliament that wants to Leave and we will Leave with or without a deal.

The whole deal/no deal thing is patently a ruse. It’s never been about any deal. That’s just a way of pretending to “honour the 2016 referendum result” (as both major parties promised to in their 2017 election manifestos) but doing so with a crocodile tear, faux altruistic concern for the result. In reality, it’s simply about not wanting to leave the EU. Until you get a simple, unavoidable decision a). No deal. B). Revoke Article 50 these people will continue to hide behind obfuscating excuses and verbal chaff.

It doesn’t matter how many times you post you will still get the same convoluted questions/answers to what was a very simple question, with no ifs, buts or qualifications. One which resulted, given all the effort put in by the big guns, in an inconceivable result. A vote to leave the EU. The largest mandate in the UK’s electoral history.

You’ll just keep going around in circles as they go on and on. It obviously makes them feel better.

There’s still an unwillingness to acknowledge the obvious, whatever happens the UK is never going back to the way things were pre-2016. Things like the inexorable rise of Farage’s single issue party, from non-existence a few months ago to becoming the largest body in the E.U. Parliament, will be waved away with a few statistics. Delusion.

[cyprusgrump]

Thankfully, Boris has made it clear that we will be Leaving with or without a deal. I'm happy either way...

No you are not happy either way, if leaving with a deal means leaving with a deal that YOU think is not brexit at all. So you do think that Boris (an extreme leaver) heading a minority government should chose how we leave and Parliament should not be able to stop him.

You just make it up as you go along don't you...?

I'm perfectly happy Leaving the EU with a trade deal... Why wouldn't I be...?

Eventually we'll have a deal, the volume of trade is too large not to deal with the EU (for both sides) not to.

But the deal can't be in the way of implementing the result of the referendum...

And I'd remind you that parliament has already voted on the subject and the default position agreed is to leave on WTO terms (no deal)...