Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

You lose all credibility when you cite 'extreme leavers'...

There is nothing extreme about the 17.4 million ordinary people that used their democratic vote to leave the EU...

I am NOT the one claiming to know with absolute certainty what every one who voted to leave thought about leaving but staying in a customs union and if this was 'leaving or not'. You are the one constantly making such claims and variants of them, like the reason parliament voted down May's deal was because parliament did not think the deal was Brexit or Brexit enough. That is what makes you, in my view, an 'extreme leaver' as opposed to just someone who voted leave. 17.4 million voted to leave. You are the one who claims to know as indisputable fact that all of them also think if we were to leave but remain in a customs union with the EU that would not be brexit to them.

Nor is there anything extreme in those MPs that chose to represent the views of those that voted them into the job...

You mean MP's like Raab, whos constituents voted to remain ?

I'll remind you once again of the numbers...

Of course you will because what else do you have ? You will not or can not address the points I have made, so what else can you do ?

Oh OK, so now we are going to question the intelligence of voters when we don't like the results.

The ballot seemed pretty clear to me.

[cyprusgrump]

Round and round we go. You keep claiming , repeatedly that all those who voted to leave support us leaving without a deal and consider leaving but remaining in the customs union would not be brexit. Or leaving and not remaining in customs union but under the terms in TM's deal is also not Brexit. Am I wrong ? Are you not claiming this ? Did I imagine it ?

I know for a fact that not all those who voted leave consider us leaving but remaining in a customs union with the EU to not be leaving at all, because I know the people personally and have asked them directly. I know for a fact that a majority of MP's did not support us leaving without a deal back in March. I know that the polls indicate there is not a majority amongst the UK population for leaving without a deal and never has been. So what do you have ? From what I can see, just your insistence that all those who voted leave must and can only consider that leaving the EU but remaining in a customs union is not Brexit for no other reason that this is what you personally think, backed up with 'lies' like the reason parliament (as opposed to extreme leaver MPs) rejected TM's deal with the EU is because it was not Brexit or Brexit enough.

There are those that support leaving, have always supported leaving that are not in my book 'extreme' because they do not place wanting to leave and wanting to convince other to leave above actual truth and reality. Just one example might be

Aaaand there you go with your accusations of 'lying' again and your bizarre concept of 'extreme' leavers...

Round and round we go you say and yet you do go round making the same old accusations over and over again...

And so I must (as an extreme leaver ) point out to you once more that it was a binary choice and the people chose to leave...

You may not like it, May doesn't like it, the majority of MPs obviously don't like it and some people you know may not be happy with the terms... But that is all irrelevant as parliament made the rules, set out the voting paper and promised to implement the result.

And extreme leavers like me and others that just believe in the concept of democracy aren't going to shut up until the result of the referendum is delivered.

[cyprusgrump]

Not my facts, the CBI's, feel free to quote a reliable source that disproves them. As for the 10 x figure, I think you misunderstand; it's the multiplier effect of actually belonging to the EU rather than cash being paid directly to the UK. The UK has a bigger economy because of the workers from the EU. For example,

Well, we've tried it for 40 years and yet, and yet given the option to leave more than half of the UK population chose to do so...

So once we leave we can see if you and the CBI (who take funds from the EU) were right or not... And if you are right we can have another vote in 40 years and go back...

We're leaving get over it!

NO, just over half of those who voted OVER THREE YEARS AGO voted to leave. Genuine democracy would ask eighteen year olds what they would like TODAY. The democratic process preceding General Elections requires a change that immediately follows "discussion" by the public and politicians but in the case of Brexit even after three years+ the change has not taken place. Why do Brexiteers find it so difficult to accept that leaving is not something the majority want today (check the polls). The simple answer from simpletons is " it's the what people want" - NO it's what 52% of those who voted wanted three years ago. Let's do the honest thing and see if they still want to leave the EU but the Leavers won't have it because they know they will lose.

Parliament will force a General Election before October 31, yes some turkeys will vote for Christmas, we will have a hung Parliament and no Brexit. Kipper Johnson will be the shortest serving PM ever - get over it

The numbers are against you Jerry, get over it!

And the problem with your call for a second referendum now is that Remainer politicians are now openly admitting thatif we voted Leave again they still wouldn't accept the result!

Hilarious "The numbers are against you Jerry, get over it" and then he quotes a source that says 160 MPs voted Leave and 486 Remain. Are you not aware that it's the MPs, not us plebs, that will determine the outcome.

Come back with your "get over it" jibes on November 1st

Of course I am aware of the numbers of MPs against leaving... That is the reason we haven't left three years after the vote...

But it is the plebs that put MPs there and they can be replaced by their Leave voting constituency or thrown out at a GE... You do remember how well The Brexit Party did at the European Elections don't you...?

So yes, it might take a GE and another year to leave... But we are patient, we've waited a long time for this chance and the genie can't be squeezed back into the bottle...

[erolz66]

Aaaand there you go with your accusations of 'lying' again and your bizarre concept of 'extreme' leavers...

When you say things that are not true what else is there to call it but a lie ? When you show a willingness to use such lies to get what you want , how is that not extreme ? You claimed that the reason Parilament rejected May's deal was because it was not Brexit. That is simple not true of Parliament. It is only true of a minority of those MP's who support a specific form of Brexit, the extreme Brexiters. It is just not true to claim that was why Parliament rejected Mays deal.

and extreme leavers like me and others that just believe in the concept of democracy aren't going to shut up until the result of the referendum is delivered.

You (extreme leavers) will not shut up until you get a specific form of Brexit you want and nothing else and regardless of if that particular form of Brexit you want has majority support amongst the population. That is not 'believing in democracy' that is contemptuous of democracy.

We vote on if we should buy a car or not. We vote yes. You then claim we must by a Jaguar, that the people voted to buy a Jaguar. When someone suggest we buy a Ford, you say that is not what people voted for, that a Ford is a car in name only and block all attempts to buy a Ford. When someone suggests, given that you are blocking any purchase of a car other than the Jaguar you want, we vote on what kind of car to buy, you say we have already voted and that we must not and can let the people vote on what kind of car to buy because they already voted to buy a car. That to allow people to vote on what kind of car they buy is 'undemocratic' and that only way to fulfil the result of the first vote is to buy the Jaguar you want.

The bottom line is there is either majority support amongst the population or those they have elected to represent them for leaving without a deal or there is not majority support for this. I as a democrat say if there is majority support for leaving without a deal amongst the population or those they have elected to represent them, then we leave without a deal. You as an extreme leaver that claims to be a democrat say we have already voted on if we should leave without a deal, even though that is not true, that we can not and must not ask the people if they support leaving without a deal or not, even in the face of the fact that there is no such support amongst those the people have elected to represent them and that we must just leave without a deal, even if we have to shut down parliament and deny not just the people a say but also those that they elected to represent them, so you can get what you want, to leave without a deal. I know who I think is the 'true' democrat here and who is just trying to abuse democratic process to get a desire that they want even though there is not majority desire for such an outcome.

[cyprusgrump]

Aaaand there you go with your accusations of 'lying' again and your bizarre concept of 'extreme' leavers...

When you say things that are not true what else is there to call it but a lie ? When you show a willingness to use such lies to get what you want , how is that not extreme ? You claimed that the reason Parilament rejected May's deal was because it was not Brexit. That is simple not true of Parliament. It is only true of a minority of those MP's who support a specific form of Brexit, the extreme Brexiters. It is just not true to claim that was why Parliament rejected Mays deal.

and extreme leavers like me and others that just believe in the concept of democracy aren't going to shut up until the result of the referendum is delivered.

You (extreme leavers) will not shut up until you get a specific form of Brexit you want and nothing else and regardless of if that particular form of Brexit you want has majority support amongst the population. That is not 'believing in democracy' that is contemptuous of democracy.

We vote on if we should buy a car or not. We vote yes. You then claim we must by a Jaguar, that the people voted to buy a Jaguar. When someone suggest we buy a Ford, you say that is not what people voted for, that a Ford is a car in name only and block all attempts to buy a Ford. When someone suggests, given that you are blocking any purchase of a car other than the Jaguar you want, we vote on what kind of car to buy, you say we have already voted and that we must not and can let the people vote on what kind of car to buy because they already voted to buy a car. That to allow people to vote on what kind of car they buy is 'undemocratic' and that only way to fulfil the result of the first vote is to buy the Jaguar you want.

The bottom line is there is either majority support amongst the population or those they have elected to represent them for leaving without a deal or there is not majority support for this. I as a democrat say if there is majority support for leaving without a deal amongst the population or those they have elected to represent them, then we leave without a deal. You as an extreme leaver that claims to be a democrat say we have already voted on if we should leave without a deal, even though that is not true, that we can not and must not ask the people if they support leaving without a deal or not, even in the face of the fact that there is no such support amongst those the people have elected to represent them and that we must just leave without a deal, even if we have to shut down parliament and deny not just the people a say but also those that they elected to represent them, so you can get what you want, to leave without a deal. I know who I think is the 'true' democrat here and who is just trying to abuse democratic process to get a desire that they want even though there is not majority desire for such an outcome.

No, the bottom line is that the vote was for Leave or Remain...

We voted Leave.

The WA was rejected because it wasn't Leave (the clue was in the name ) and it could have tied us into the EU forever...

There is nothing extreme in expecting a vote that was put to the people to be respected. That is what we call democracy...

[erolz66]

Cyprusgrump do you think the UK should leave the EU without a deal if that is not what the majority of the British people want ?

Simple question.

[cyprusgrump]

Cyprusgrump do you think the UK should leave the EU without a deal if that is not what the majority of the British people want ?

Simple question.

Simple answer is that we have to Leave to respect the result of the referendum.

It was a binary choice, Leave or Remain and we voted Leave. If we don't Leave then democracy has no value in the UK any longer.

So if we have to Leave with 'no deal' then yes, that will be fine as it respects the result of the democratically held referendum.

You simply cannot have a spectrum of choices on this can you...? If you agree to leave but only with a deal, what is an acceptable deal...?

It was a binary choice, Leave or Remain and we voted Leave. Implement the result of the referendum then work on trade deals.

[Kikapu]

Let me give another “bottom line” scenario.

One of the married couples wants a divorce and asks for one, and the idea is approved by the parties. Let’s call it, UK/EU and the referendum.

So far so good if the couple do not have any kids together for custody purposes. They do not own any property to share. They don’t own a business together to resolve who owns what. There is no money in the bank to make a split on certain %. There is to be no alimony to be paid and so on.

HOWEVER, should the couple have some or all of the above issues in the last 40 years of marriage, it is not easy just to say, “well, I want a divorce and that is the end of it and I don’t care about the other details that has tied the couple together”. The divorce my be granted eventually because the other party, the EU, is not contesting to the divorce, but at the same time, the party who does want divorce, the UK, has to resolve all her legal obligations, in order to be granted to be divorced.

Now, just because the couple no longer want to sleep together in the same bed, it does not mean that they are divorced, and that’s where we are, we the UK citizens are the “issues” between the UK/EU marriage, as some issues being contested in the divorce proceedings. The party who wants the divorce, the UK, has not satisfied her “issues” to be granted to have the divorce yet, and perhaps never will 100%. A divorce decision may be made by the UK citizens , but finalizing it is an another matter. At the moment, the “issues”, the UK citizens are not all satisfied with the divorce proceedings, end of!

[cyprusgrump]

Let me give another “bottom line” scenario.

One of the married couples wants a divorce and asks for one, and the idea is approved by the parties. Let’s call it, UK/EU and the referendum.

So far so good if the couple do not have any kids together for custody purposes. They do not own any property to share. They don’t own a business together to resolve who owns what. There is no money in the bank to make a split on certain %. There is to be no alimony to be paid and so on.

HOWEVER, should the couple have some or all of the above issues in the last 40 years of marriage, it is not easy just to say, “well, I want a divorce and that is the end of it and I don’t care about the other details that has tied the couple together”. The divorce my be granted eventually because the other party, the EU, is not contesting to the divorce, but at the same time, the party who does want divorce, the UK, has to resolve all her legal obligations, in order to be granted to be divorced.

Now, just because the couple no longer want to sleep together in the same bed, it does not mean that they are divorced, and that’s where we are, we the UK citizens are the “issues” between the UK/EU marriage, as some issues being contested in the divorce proceedings. The party who wants the divorce, the UK, has not satisfied her “issues” to be granted to have the divorce yet, and perhaps never will 100%. A divorce decision may be made by the UK citizens , but finalizing it is an another matter. At the moment, the “issues”, the UK citizens are not all satisfied with the divorce proceedings, end of!

Top marks for obfuscation but I don't think you have moved the discussion on at all...

[erolz66]

Simple answer is that we have to Leave to respect the result of the referendum.

That you (first) chose not to answer my simple question but instead chose to answer a different question I did not ask, to me, speaks loud.

I do not disagree with you on the question you have answered (the one I did not ask). Where I disagree with you is the idea that you (extreme leavers) and not the people must be the arbiters of if a given form of leaving is really leaving or not.

It was a binary choice, Leave or Remain and we voted Leave. If we don't Leave then democracy has no value in the UK any longer.

I have not said we should not leave. I am saying that you should not be the arbiters of if a given form of leaving is or is not leaving at all. I am saying the people or their democratically elected representatives should be the judge of that.

So if we have to Leave with 'no deal' then yes, that will be fine as it respects the result of the democratically held referendum.

So finally you have answered my question. You do believe that we should leave without a deal even if that is not the majority will of the population. This then is your 'democracy'. You show, to me, that your commitment to the pre eminence of the 'will of the people' is only if and when the will of the people matches your own desire. When your own desire does not match or might not match the will of the people , then that should and must be ignored. Extreme ?

You simply cannot have a spectrum of choices on this can you...? If you agree to leave but only with a deal, what is an acceptable deal...?

You absolutely could ask the people explicitly and directly (and given that their elected representatives have already answered on this) do you support leaving the EU without a deal - yes or no. But you reject this as a way forward and it seems to me the reason why you reject this as a way forward is because you fear the will of the people on this question will not match what you want, so instead you try and claim such an approach is 'undemocratic'

It was a binary choice, Leave or Remain and we voted Leave. Implement the result of the referendum then work on trade deals.

Who should decide if a given form of exit is or is not really exiting ? You (extreme leavers) or the people ?